Monday, August 18, 2008

Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain

Did you all watch Obama and McCain at the Saddleback Church forum over the weekend? McCain was impressive... especially when he spoke of his years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam.

But did you know there’s a group of Vietnam veterans that hates John McCain? They loathe him. And they don’t want him to be president.

They are Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain. And no one in the mainstream media is bothering to talk about them.

These folks accuse McCain of having “collaborated” with his Communist captors.

They say he is a “spoiled son of military privilege” who was a lousy pilot in the first place.

They say McCain was subjected to Soviet “brain perversion techniques” that might’ve caused a lifetime of “mental health issues.”

Now consider: The Vietnam vets who attacked Democrat John Kerry four years ago became a dominant force in the campaign. The Vietnam vets who attack Republican John McCain... are a non-issue.

Below is a 4½-minute video of Col. Earl Hopper (U.S. Army, ret.), who died last month. Listen to him and you’ll understand what the Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain are all about.

51 comments:

Phelps said...

The group is run by Jerry Kiley, who is a truther. He's a nut:

http://www.usvetdsp.com/kiley_court.htm

They also apparently like to pose as and piggy back on the Swift Boat Vets name:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1963416/posts

The Swift Boat Vets had traction because they were Kerry's peers (Kiley was in comm, not a pilot) and because they were the majority. Kiley is just a well motivated nut.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Don't forget Ted Sampley.

Undercover Black Man said...

Also... Kiley and Sampley aren’t the only veterans outspokenly against McCain.

Thomas Burch, who led the National Vietnam and Gulf War Veterans Coalition, accused McCain of abandoning the interests of veterans and MIA families. (George Bush campaigned with Burch during the GOP primaries in 2000.)

David Hackworth said in 2000: “There are many [vets] who challenge his conduct when he was a POW.”

Yet when’s the last time you heard this discussed on the cable news nets? Especially with McCain making his POW status a campaign issue (a “character” issue at that)?

Vince Spence said...

UBM,

Shame on you. Normally I overlook your recent tendency to make comments on unverifiable facts regarding Sen. Obama's opponent. This one is over the top. You are calling a Vietnam War veteran and a Prisoner Of War a traitor and that he is guilty of treason. You attempted to 'soften' it with the communist "mind techniques" comment, but the damage is done. Did you notice I did NOT say P.O.W. I used the correct term - Prisoner Of War.

As a disabled Vietnam veteran, I am routinely at the VA hospital in downtown Baltimore. The overwhelming majority of the Veterans are black. They wear flags and hats with their old company names and battalion insignias. The marines kid the army guys and we all kid the air force weenies. Fortunately, I have all of my limbs and I do not suffer from PTSD. Many of the people I have described above are not that lucky. They might vote 100% for Sen. Obama and 0% for Captain McCain, but I guarantee you they will take exception to you calling someone who was in actual combat, as they were, a coward and a traitor. A poor pilot and a poor soldier still serves their country whereas screen writers and bloggers merely write about OTHER people serving their country. With a readership as large as yours, you should exercise some editorial responsibility by not publishing unverifiable damaging material.

This campaign is unfortunately going to get uglier. My respect and admiration for Sen. Obama has grown tenfold since he entered the race. I do not agree it is twice as hard being a black man in America, but I do believe it is three times harder for Barack than it would be for a white candidate. He has to please the whites, the blacks and the black racists who routinely read your comments.

Russ said...

Mr. Spence,

UBM did not accuse John McCain of being a coward and a traitor. He simply pointed out that there are veterans who feel that way about him and they get no coverage. Compare that to all the ink and video that the Swift Boat veterans got when they, what's the term, oh yeah, "Swift Boated" John Kerry, and somethng is rotten in the so-called liberal media my friend. Especially when they BOTH made their service in Vietnam central to their campaigns. Now maybe the ciriticism of Kerry was valid and the criticism of McCain is not, but let's at least have the media evaluate it.

Undercover Black Man said...

Thank you, Russ. You got my point precisely.

Vince Spence said...

Russ,

By running a video of a dead man unable to answer direct questions regarding 'facts' he quotes on that video is tantamount to accusing Captain McCain of those atrocities. David used the word 'loathe' and that was not in parentheses, so it must be his word.

By parenthesizing, "collaborated", "spoiled son of military privilege", "mental health issues" and the like allows any reader to choose the context of the accusations and statements.

David is normally neutral on comments by other groups and the issues he presents to us. I believe he is allowing the negative items being printed about Sen. Obama by the McCain campaign to trigger and invite further retaliatory comments.

The John Kerry issue has nothing whatsoever to do with the attack on Captain McCain. It is a smoke screen easily seen through.

Lola Gets said...

Off-tpoic: Please come by and check out a new pic I posted.

L

maria said...

The Swift Boat Vets had traction because they were Kerry's peers (Kiley was in comm, not a pilot) and because they were the majority. Kiley is just a well motivated nut.

sorry, but exactly what "majority" would that have been?

thanks for post, david; didn't know about this group.

Henry said...

I have had troouble with "flyboy" McCain's Nam story. Knowing how it goes, and have spotted for the birds from time to time, you have to have really been a "f-up" to trail smoke and fire, out of the sky. Then I lerned the man wasn't a fighter. That made since, when it was pointed out, he was 5 from the bottom at the acadamy. The plane used may look like a fighter, but it coud be dressd out many ways. 5 from the bottoms are the last ones to be put in a job like, fighter. They are bench warmers, to the big show.

Undercover Black Man said...

sorry, but exactly what "majority" would that have been?

Bingo, Maria.

Kellybelle said...

Wow. It wd be awesome if we could stop fighting the Vietnam War in our politics.
The Obamaholic in me wishes Barack was dirty enough to use this stuff; but I guess I wouldn't be such a fan if he did.

mel said...

Vince Spence said:

"He has to please the whites, the blacks and the black racists who routinely read your comments."
***********************************

You are a piece of work, Vince.
You make yourself a nice, valid point with UBM, then go and make some fucked up comment like that....
What a winner.

Vince Spence said...

Mel,

In case you haven't noticed, the overwhelming majority of contributors to this site are black. You hide your identity, so I cannot read your past posts, but if you read and comment on this site you routinely encounter obvious racism by many blacks. I did not say all UBM contributors were black, I wrote "...has to please the whites, the blacks and the black racists who routinely read your comments."

Michael Fisher said...

What does a "black racist" do, Vince?

Undercover Black Man said...

^ For one thing, Fish, he answers when called.

Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"For one thing, Fish, he answers when called."

Like who, Mills?

RC said...

Uh-Oh, did somebody turn up the heat in here?

maria said...

this is david's blog and it has one contributor-david. it has some commenters but i don't think most are black--i am not--and the only racists i have come upon here are not black. i don't know why you are here at all.

Undercover Black Man said...

Like who, Mills?

The difference, Fish, is that I don't answer with a silly-ass pseudo-Socratic question.

I step up in your house and clown you on your own blog... carpeting-bombing your stutterin' ass with facts, reason and wit.

In terms of serve-and-volley action, it's like Serena Williams going up against Moms Mabley.

And then you step into the House of Love with your old housecoat and slippers, acting like you're ready to do some damage.

Oh, you Yale-educated Negroes tickle me so...

Hidden Mel said...

Vince Spence said :
"In case you haven't noticed, the overwhelming majority of contributors to this site are black."
******************************
Now there's some insight.

Vince said:
" You hide your identity, so I cannot read your past posts"
*****************************
I don't hide shit. I don't have a google account, or a website. BFD.

Vince said:
" but if you read and comment on this site you routinely encounter obvious racism by many blacks."
**********************************
routinely? obvious? by many?
Where do I start with this one???
The only racist I've "encountered" here is you.
I'm interested, however, in the "obvious" racism you encounter "routinely" (like, twice a day? every hour or so?) by "many" (like, more than 3? 4? 29? 44?) 'racist blacks' - a term I'd love to hear your definition of.
And actually, an example, or seven, of such "obvious" (a relative term) racism from these many 'racist blacks' you're keeping track of.

Vince said:
"I did not say all UBM contributors were black, I wrote "...has to please the whites, the blacks and the black racists who routinely read your comments."
*********************************
Uhh... yeah, got it the first time you said it. Didn't sound any different the second time around.

mel still hiding said...

UBM - Maybe you could define "black racist" as well, since you are comfortable using the term.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Actually, Mel, I'm just comfortable baiting Mike Fisher.

Michael Fisher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"I step up in your house and clown you..."

Maybe you did, David. Maybe you did.

But this thing is about more than your or my pride.

Racism is a very serious thing. Because of it dozens of millions of people die violent deaths, suffer of disease, hunger, and malnutrition.

When you push neo-Nazi thoughts and concepts as you do, you become an integral part of a system that victimizes people all over the globe. Just because they are considered "weak" because of their color assignment.

I didn't go after you because I dislike you or think you are stupid or in order to humiliate you. I don't dislike you at all and I certainly do not think you are stupid.

But your view of the world at it's core is so thoroughly racist and dismissive of the humanity of people who are in a weak position, that it boggles the mind.

To add insult to injury you sugar-coat your inhumane advocacy with a "I'm black" mantle. And thereby serve to confuse a lot of non-white people who just can not accept that anyone who claims they are black can advocate such inhumane concepts.

No David. Might is not right. High-technology societies do not have the right to willy-nilly take whatever they desire from people that do not possess the technological and military sophistication.

Without a moral compass set to righteousness, this world will go to hell in a hand basket faster than it already does.

Undercover Black Man said...

The problem, Michael, with being consumed by a sense of grievance over the last 500 years of world history is... it leads to a warped demonization of white people. (The NOI, as an extreme example, codifies this into religious truth.)

But do you apply post-WWII concepts of human rights retroactively to the Muslim caliphates that carried out campaigns of violence, land acquisition, enslavement (of Africans) and forced religious conversion for centuries?

Do you apply your judgements concerning "righteousness" and defense of the weak to Genghis Khan?

Why so hung up on the power moves of a few European nation-states? Why have you invested such psychic energy into making white people the center of the universe, the level-pullers of the globe, and the obstacle to Africa being more powerful than it is?

Kire said...

But the real issue is that John McCain is proud of bombing innocent civilians in North Vietnam. The US bombings were terror bombings and instead of condemning what he did McCain is using it to make a career.
I can´t see why in US being a part of terror bombings is seen as a merit. If someone in Sweden had done anything similar only the most bloodthirsty idiots would vote on him.

Vince Spence said...

Michael
Mel

Black racism is ....'a warped demonization of white people'.

Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"post-WWII concepts of human rights"

???

You gotta be kiddin' me.

As if the concept of morality and righteousness is not as ancient as KMT and beyond into the mists of human endeavor.

Why don't I concentrate on Ghengis Khan?

Simple.

The System of Mongol Supremacy is long gone.

And if you took the time to read the Assault (search term Arab) you'll find that my condemnation of the Arab crude version of white supremacy which was the template for the modern European refined form of white supremacy is quite elaborate.

"Why so hung up on the power moves of a few European nation-states? Why have you invested such psychic energy into making white people the center of the universe, the level-pullers of the globe, and the obstacle to Africa being more powerful than it is?

Interesting question from someone who insists that these European nations and their derivatives have set up an international socio-political economic system of such power that it requires less powerful human groups such as the Zimbabweans to accept that dominance "or starve".

Why focus on that?

Because the system of racism.white supremacy is the most powerful and effective socio-political arrangement on the globe. Why else?

As to this "demonization of white people" thing.

I don't demonize anything or anyone. I am concerned with present circumstances. The grievances of the past are relevant only to the extent to which they are part of the present.

Michael Fisher said...

Vince Spence...

"Black racism is ....'a warped demonization of white people'."

And how exactly does that negatively impact your daily existence as a white person?

Undercover Black Man said...

^ You better hope he doesn't ride the bus, Fish.

Vince Spence said...

Michael Fisher,

Your quote:
"I don't demonize anything or anyone. I am concerned with present circumstances. The grievances of the past are relevant only to the extent to which they are part of the present."

To this day, whites are demonized by many blacks for slavery practices of 150 years ago. But I guess you do not fall into that category because slavery is a grievance 'of the past' and not 'relevant to the present'. Unless I am mistaken, the practice of physically holding blacks against their will is not currently occurring in America and has not for 150 years. Stop blaming Vince Spence for your F&*#ing problems.

Michael Fisher said...

Vince, I asked you:

"And how exactly does that [the warped demonization of white people] negatively impact your daily existence as a white person?"

Well?

Vince Spence said...

Michael,

I am not impacted to any degree by this practice. I am just very disappointed in the lack of black progress I have witnessed since 1967. MLK did not demonize whites and in 10 short years made more progress toward racial equality than the previous 10 decades. If he were resurrected today, his disappointment in the lack of demonstrable improvement in that area would be palpable.

Hating another man (or race) will never improve that person's plight in life. I have high hopes for Sen. Obama in this area. If, when elected, he encircles himself with positive people (white, yellow or black), instead of people stuck in 1866, REAL progress can be and will be made.

You did not respond to my previous post. Are you going to claim the old, "your post doesn't warrant a reply" routine so common to you and a few other bloggers on this site?

Michael Fisher said...

Vince Spence...

"I am not impacted to any degree by this practice."

Then I strongly suggest that you not worry about it.

Vince Spence said...

Typical...

Michael Fisher said...

Vince...

"Typical..."

Why?

If I were in the luxurious position where I was "not impacted to any degree" by the practice of white racism I certainly wouldn't worry about it.

mel said...

There you go, Spence, throw Dr. King into the conversation, that'll work. (shaking my head in disbelief).

You've got high hopes for Obama, eh? mmmmhmmmmm, I bet you do.
Then you can come back, hands on your hips, pointing at Michael Fisher and all those "many" black racists you "encounter" here, and say "Lookie there, black racists, we have a BLACK President! See! Racism is a thing of the past!"

Here, you'll enjoy this quote from the man you know so well:
"The Negro wanted to feel pride in his race? With tokenism, the solution was simple. If all twenty million negroes would keep looking at Ralph Bunche (insert Obama instead, if you will), the one man in so exalted a post would generate such a volume of pride that it could be cut into portions and served to everyone. A judge here and a judge there; an executive behind a polished desk in a carpeted office...- all these were tokens used to obscure the persisting reality of segregation and discrimination."
-Martin Luther King Jr.


And while we're on the topic of Dr. King, he also said:

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice....Shallow understanding from the people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will."

Vince Spence said...

Michael,

Since birth, how have YOU personally been negatively impacted by the practice of white racism?

Vince Spence said...

Before you ask, that's me in the middle with my brother Wally on my left and his friend, Eddie Haskell, on my right...

Vince Spence said...

David,

I'm relatively new to UBM. Does Fisher EVER answer a direct question?

Vince Spence said...

Mel,

As a MLK scholar, what is your opinion his impression would be of the progress blacks have made in the past 40 years? Would he be optimistic about the next 40?

Also, you are right. My entire reason for feeling positive about the potential Obama presidency is to "come back, hands on your hips, pointing at Michael Fisher and all those "many" black racists you "encounter" here, and say "Lookie there, black racists, we have a BLACK President! See! Racism is a thing of the past!"

Mel, your paranoia is amazing. Most whites think of black people about 2% as much as you think they do. Every thought and action in our lives really isn't geared towards 'keeping the black man down'.

Undercover Black Man said...

I'm relatively new to UBM. Does Fisher EVER answer a direct question?

He has never answered one of mine.

mel said...

Spence -
1) Wouldn't call myself an MLK scholar
2) Wouldn't EVER speak on what I think Dr. King might feel today, or felt during his life.
3)Wouldn't speak of the issue in terms of "progess Blacks have made"
4) Would prefer to speak of the issue in terms of the oppression of people of color....because that's the issue.
5)Wouldn't consider myself paranoid.

And I never said White folks think about Black folks AT ALL.
Your statements reflect a lack of understanding of the levels and forms of racism.

Anonymous said...

John McCain is a war criminal anyways. If he collaborated with the Vietnamese, then that makes up a little for his crime of fighting against them. The USA slaughtered Vietnamese by the hundreds of thousands with bombings, toxic gas, and other means, and the USA slaughtered half a million Cambodians. That's typical behavior for the USA - causing ruin, pain, anguish and death.
From the Sand Creek massacre, to bombing the water treatment facilities in Iraq in 1991 which led to wide spread cholera, dysentery, and other diseases, the USA is an imperialist, war-mongering oppressor. There is no such thing as a US war hero, just US war criminals.
In reference to the comments which accused some black of being racist, well that's just ridiculous. Blacks are the victims of racism. If they are bitter at their white oppressors, then that is understandable. It is ridiculous to call that natural resentment as racism. There is no such thing as a US war hero, just war criminals, and their is no such thing as a black racist.

Anonymous said...

Is the USA over racism if it has a black president? Hardly. The president of the US is just a puppet of the corporate elite. Condi Rice is just a house-slave sell out. So was Colon Powell. He was a house-slave puppet war criminal. Racism permeates from the very core of US culture. US racism disguises itself. Mexicans are evicted on the superficial basis of illegal entry as a cover for the racist intolerance of them. Blacks are offered some politicians as a distraction while they are treated as second class citizens. Arabs are denied purchasing ports because of stereotyping bigotry. China and Japan are depicted as tricky merchants out to undermine the US economy. People shouldn't be fooled by some artificial distractions such as ineffectual puppet minorities held up as supposed examples of equality.

Anonymous said...

Correction:
"In reference to the comments which accused some black of being racist, well that's just ridiculous. "
was meant to read as:
In reference to the comments which accused some people of being black racists, well that's just ridiculous.
Sorry for the error.
As for the reference to gas in Vietnam, an example of that is agent orange, in case anyone was wondering.

Anonymous said...

Oh, come now. Everyone knows that the only people who are capable of being racists are white people.

The only way a white person can *not* be considered a racist is if that white person constantly feels ashamed of his heritage because of the past actions of some white people who are mostly long dead by now.

Amber Star said...

I did volunteer work for Operation Just Cause about 6 or 7 years ago.
One of the men who is a leader in that organization told me about John McCain then. He told me all the same things the Veterans Agains McCain say and the information about how he, McCain treated his first wife. This conversation was apart and totally separate from the OJC cause and came up in the course of chatting on ICQ about my duties. He was very concerned about McCain becoming involved in politics way back then. His disgust about the subject was palable even over ICQ.

I've wondered why there has not been any coverage similar to the swift boat blast from the past in regard to John McCain, too.

The challenge to Senator McCain from the VVAM was issued in January '08 and still nothing has been in the mainstream tv coverage.

Anonymous said...

Hey everybody! It's character assassination day! Round 1 was supported by Jerry Kiley (who also headed up the Vietnam Vets against John Kerry, interestingly enough).

Round 2 swings back towards Obama! Isn't this fun how "supporters" of each campaign cites crazy nutbags in the attempts to destroy great men!?!:

1) While Obama was snorting cocaine in the late 70's, John McCain was rehabilitating from his Vietnam injuries and exiting the military (with 17 military awards and distinctions) due to the disability he incurred during service.

2) One of the few resume entries Obama has is serving as director of the Woods Fund board alongside William C. Ayers, a founding member of the Weathermen terrorist group which declared war against and sought to overthrow the U.S. government and took responsibility for bombing the U.S. Capitol in 1971. The Woods Fund has given 75k to the AAAN, an Arab "community organization" which condones suicide bombings in Israel.

3) Obama has numerous extended family members who have proven terrorist ties. Look these up yourself: Malik Obama, half brother, is a Kenyan terrorist. Raila Odinga, half brother, is a family member to the Hamas leader in Gaza. Mark Ndesandjo, half brother, has been charged by the UK for supporting terrorism.

4) After Obama was sworn in as U.S. Senator, Michelle's salary went from $121,910 to $316,962 at the University of Chicago Medical Center. Obama used his influence to request a $1 million earmark for the hospital where Michelle works.

In conclusion, I ask the same question UBM asks: why isn't there coverage of these things in the mainstream press?

SteveMDFP said...

There is fresh scholarship to confirm that John McCain betrayed Vietnam POWs left behind, and their families:

McCain and the POW Cover-up http://www.nationinstitute.org/p/schanberg09182008pt1