Friday, July 11, 2008

Ward Connerly on Barack Obama

Last Friday night on KFI, my favorite L.A. talk-radio station, prominent black conservative Ward Connerly chatted with Joe Hicks, KFI’s token black host (who is usually relegated to Saturday nights).

The subject was Barack Obama.

With all of the African-American talking heads on cable-news shows this election year, I had not heard two black conservatives discuss among themselves their opposition to Obama on ideological grounds.

Although I support Obama, I think this conversation speaks well to the diversity of political opinion in 21st-Century black America.

Click here to hear an 8-minute excerpt on my Vox blog.

95 comments:

Anonymous said...

diversity of political opinion in 21st-Century black America ??

Ward Connerly and Joe Hicks are the exceptions that prove the rule. They are not popular, writ large, among blacks. If Thomas Sowell ran as an independent for POTUS, he would not win the black vote. Clarence Thomas joins 50 Cent at the bottom of a list of favorability ratings among black newsmakers.

Sure there are hundreds of thousands of blacks who are conservative, libertarian, or otherwise contrarian in their political opinions, but let's not ignore the 10-ton boulder on the scale.

MacDaddy said...

Interesting post, Undercover.

But here's the bottom line for me: Black Republicans are wedded to a party whose ideology has failed us. This makes them irrelevant to the every-day struggles of working people.

It's been lower taxes, de-regulate, support big business and their success will filter to working and poor people.

It's been throwing money at stupid wars while throwing just a few crumbs to state government for things like healthcare, infrastructure, and transportation.

Result? Republicans' have failed; and black Republicans, who have embraced their ideology and rhetoric, have no clue. Most white Republicans ignore them; and most blacks either ignore or despise them. It's bad enough that they're ignored by the party. But to despised by most of your own people is, well, special.

Undercover Black Man said...

They are not popular, writ large, among blacks.

Popularity isn't the issue, anon. Cultural impact is.

And Ward Connerly has had a large impact in opposing race-based affirmative action. (A position I agree with, by the way.)

Bygbaby said...

Sorry but Ward Connerly is a destructive conservative bitch!

Bygbaby

Malcolm said...

You guys are missing a great opportunity.

If you’re black and join the Republican Party, you can write your own ticket.

Since there are only 3 or 4 blacks in the Republican Party, you’ll always be on the short list when they need to get a face on TV, or someone to stand on the stage next to the big shots.

It won’t matter if you’re a screw-up, or dim or totally incapable. They will be so happy to see a black face (see, they have black friends), that they will fall all over each other to kiss your a*s.

You could spend a lifetime in the real world trying to become a “leader”, or you could suddenly become a leader on Fox “news” overnight.

All you need to do is stand in front of the camera, shout about responsibility and the importance of drilling in Alaska, and leave out the part about the 400 years in chains.

Undercover Black Man said...

Hatin' on the black Republicans, is you?

They're coming up strong... like pa-POW and BAYUM!

LennieG said...

They're coming up strong... like pa-POW and BAYUM!

....and Hicktown! I've been very out front about the fact that I'm a black conservative who purposely changed my party to republican. And why did I do so? To protest the democrats who believe they "own" our vote. They own NOTHING over here.

So black women are leading the way, out of the democratic cesspool and into a party that is ripe for picking, as clearly they are courting us.

LennieG said...

.....and "yes", if you follow my blog you will note that I most definitely do support Barack Obama.

It's called FREEDOM to move about as I please. So being a republican conservative does not limit my movement.

Chris R. Cosby said...

You are a Republican ONLY if you are registered. The same with being a Democrat. If you are not registered, you cannot vote. Stop blogging, start registering...

It's a shame Ward & Joe are 'not popular' (anon), irrelevant (macdaddy) and 'bitches' (bygbaby). I don't even think Barack wants a one-party system. The current two-party system has made him a millionaire who is the odds on favorite to occupy 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue for the next 4 (8???) years.

Giddy Green said...

I am so disappointed in you, UBM. There are a generation of excellent black professional as a result of affirmative action. All of us, including you, have benefited from it.

DeAngelo Starnes said...

Ward Connerly is a sellout Tom House Nigga ice cream bar conservative. He is not intellectual. He's just self-hatred. Ward Connerly is an opportunist.

Speaking of affirmative action, you know it's real easy to take the anti- position when you've been a beneficiary. White folks have had affirmative action for years and call it the Good Ol' Boy Network. "It's not what you know, but who you know." And who has control over all the institutions in America and the world? Affirmative action is designed to allow merit to make the decision, to crack the Good Ol' Boy network. And then when some good ol' boys don't get into the school or that good job because a woman or nonwhite got it, they cry foul. Thirty years of half-assed affirmative action programs and everyone outside the Good Ol' Boy network is supposed to be caught up? Give me a fucking break.

Ward (and people who think like him) needs to get his nose outta the white man's ass.

cuz said...

Pleez!
Not an impressive representation of black conservatism especially when these two don't know a real left wing from a hot wing. It's oversimplified.

Clarence Thomas is against race-based admissions, yet he's sponsored his own private internship program to recruit more African Americans to clerk or intern with the Supreme Court. He's also one of the few people from South Carolina in a top position who claims his Gullah roots. Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell, conservatives have openly supported affirmative action. Powell, goes deeper than that by saying the problem is still separate and unequal from the K-12 years especilly if you don't have the financial backup to make other choices. I've heard admissions officers say they don't want to spend time actively recruiting students from certain public schools. So you're shot in the foot before you even start the race. This affects a lot people, not just African Americans. The university/college is one place where people get to engage as a diverse community and I mean that broadly.

If African Americans were making race-based decisions, Alan Keyes, Michael Steele, and Al Sharpton would've claimed a bigger chunk of that block, no? So there must be another reason other than race.

Black Republicans and Conservatives have an uphill battle within their own party and constiuency to be heard. But hey, you gotta give W credit for the best crayon box of a US Presidency. He's seated more persons of color in top positions within his administration than any Democratic President. The #1 requirement was to be on board with the ideology. I'm open to a civil dialogue with conservatives, but the oversimplification is insulting to all of us.

Undercover Black Man said...

Affirmative action is designed to allow merit to make the decision...

That's the most dishonest thing you've ever written here, DeAngelo.

If black students could compete toe-to-toe with white an Asian students on the mertis... there'd be no need for affirmative-action programs to boost the black representation at elite schools above 2 percent or so.

giddy green said...

Chris Rock had the best line about Ward Connerly - "he's dedicated his life to making sure that the white man gets a fair shake".

I mean, what does this guy get out of it? A Cadillac with a bucket of chitlins in the trunk? Does he even make 250k a year to destroy the opportunities for a whole generation?

Undercover Black Man said...

....and Hicktown! I've been very out front about the fact that I'm a black conservative who purposely changed my party to republican.

Indeed, Lynn! It was the black blogosphere that opened my eyes to the rise of a new generation of black conservatives -- you, Cobb, Afronerd, Shay (at Booker Rising)...

Undercover Black Man said...

I mean, what does this guy get out of it? A Cadillac with a bucket of chitlins in the trunk? Does he even make 250k a year to destroy the opportunities for a whole generation?

giddy: Was affirmative action supposed to last forever? Do you want it to be a permanent feature of American life that blacks who score lower on admissions tests get admitted ahead of whites who score higher?

LennieG said...

Excellent question, UBM. Was affirmative action set up to go on indefinitely?

I would like to see affirmative action and welfare discontinued. It's time to sink or swim. And I trust that blacks are quite capable of jumping into 10 feet and swimming.

Welfare should only be to those who are elderly, feeble, mentally disabled, etc. Not for able bodied people.

And affirmative action? It had its day. But this is a new day.

LennieG said...

There are a generation of excellent black professional as a result of affirmative action. All of us, including you, have benefited from it.

So are blacks too dumb to succeed without a handout? That's the accusation being made against us.

It's time to swim, black folks.

DeAngelo Starnes said...

Dave, you my boy and all, but you know we don't dishonest.

Stay with the entire context of the comment.

Affirmative action is designed to equalize against the effects of the Good Ol' Boy Network. The common attack theme is that it's about race as opposed to merit. It is about race but it's also about merit. People with merit were denied opportunities because of race.

Now, in a perfect world it would be purely about merit without regard to race. But if you're intellectually honest, you know that won't be the case. So to balance things, affirmative action programs are necessary.

An unqualified muthafucka, like Clarence Thomas and Ward Connerly, doesn't deserve a break.

The problem most anti-affirmative action proponents have is the administration of the programs. That's a problem that can be fixed. But to eliminate them altogether is wrong.

Undercover Black Man said...

But to eliminate them altogether is wrong.

Until when? Never? Should race-based affirmative action be a permanent feature of American life, DeAngelo?

Anonymous said...

UBM said:
"If black students could compete toe-to-toe with white and Asian students on the mertis...

---- Tell me, UBM why is it that Black and Brown students can't compete "toe-to-toe" with their white and asian counterparts?

-Mel

Undercover Black Man said...

---- Tell me, UBM why is it that Black and Brown students can't compete "toe-to-toe" with their white and asian counterparts?

Who knows? All we know for sure is they can't.

So let's focus as a nation on bolstering a "culture of achievement" within black communities, within black families. And let's not tacitly tell black kids, "Don't worry, you can always use your skin color to catch a break further on down the road."

DeAngelo Starnes said...

Well, let me ask you a question, Dave? Is it okay for the Good Ol' Boy Network to rule the day? Is it okay for a brilliant nonwhite person to get held back and out because some average white person is connected?

I've found that the proponents of anti-affirmative action, like a sorry-ass Ward Connerly, is afraid that his mediocrity will be exposed.

DeAngelo Starnes said...

And what the fuck are talking about Black and Brown people can't compete toe-to-toe with white and Asian counterparts? Black people have conquered the King's English and made a style out of it? Bring a white person on Black territory and watch how lost they get.

We've had to deal on their terms for 500 years. And still manage to break through and kick ass. The only way they win is holding back via the Good Ol' Boy Network.

Anonymous said...

Deangelo:

...a sellout Tom House Nigga ice cream bar conservative. He is not intellectual. He's just self-hatred...

...Ward (and people who think like him) needs to get his nose outta the white man's ass...

..An unqualified muthafucka, like Clarence Thomas and Ward Connerly, doesn't deserve a break...

...like a sorry-ass Ward Connerly...

You come across as vindictive and spiteful. You don't have a compelling substantive argument except referencing vagaries about a nefarious good ol' boy network that oddly doesn't seem to prevent Asians from penetrating. Put down the haterade.

Anonymous said...

UBM said: "Who knows? All we know for sure is they can't."

Who knows? I have met an awful lot of people who seem to KNOW that it isn't because black and brown folks are just dumb.

They seem to KNOW it isn't because all black and brown families don't care about education.

They also seem to KNOW that regardless of income, there's a gap in achievement.

They seem to KNOW that regardless of geographic location, there's a gap.

They seem to KNOW that there's ONE consistent factor - Skin color.
Hmmm.....now why is that?
Have you studied systemic racism in education? Have you studied the bias (hidden or not) imposed on children of color by their primarily white middle class teachers?

Do you have children?

I have a daughter, and I tell you, I don't see one good reason that I should KNOW my white daughter is FAR more likely to: read at grade level, succeed in all academic areas, graduate from high school, avoid unjust disciplinary action, go to college, and bond with her teachers every day of her life, than your child, strictly because of the color of her skin.

But that's the reality.

UBM said: "So let's focus as a nation on bolstering a "culture of achievement" within black communities, within black families."

Great idea. Let's do it. But first, shouldn't we be truthful about why that achievement isn't being allowed to thrive?

UBM said: "And let's not tacitly tell black kids, "Don't worry, you can always use your skin color to catch a break further on down the road."

Catch a BREAK??? Catch a BREAK?? Isn't that what MY kid is doing every single day? White folks have been catching a break for a long time.... She was born into "catching a break" just like I was.

DeAngelo Starnes said...

I love "anonymous" commentors because they don't have the courage to assign their identity to a comment.

We don't do haterade. What specifics do you want me to cite? Stats? Court cases? And then what kind of cases?

How about common sense? You, me, Dave, and everybody else knows what's happening. Now, if you don't like it, which I don't, you say something about it.

Now, I'll take what you said about the means of expression with some seriousness. It was shock effect because Ward Connerly isn't an authority. He's a frontperson for big money of the Good Ol' Boy Network. Your subsequent comment made some sense.

DeAngelo Starnes said...

anon, I meant part of your comment. Education is important to Black and Brown people. It's just that we, as a society, seem to grab onto stereotypes as truth.

dez said...

So let's focus as a nation on bolstering a "culture of achievement" within black communities, within black families.

How about within *all* disadvantaged families, regardless of race?

Gotta go with DeAngelo on this one. I frickin' hate Ward Connerly.

Anonymous said...

What I don't get about the anti affirmative action crowds is that they act like things were somehow fair before affirmative action and that things will be fair after it's dead. Where does this naivete come from? What in America's history makes people think that?

Affirmative action gets us in the door, it doesn't keep us in there permanently. I don't care if it got me my current job, I still have to work hard to keep it.

As for this "blacks should stand up on our own two feet" nonsense, when haven't we? We survived slavery and Jim Crow and we're still here.

DeAngelo Starnes said...

Waht fucks me up is that they want you to justify why you mad. All of America is getting the niggerized. But they still think it's our fault. And these comfortable fat muthafuckas like Ward Connerly come along sounding like a chocolate-covered Rush Limbaugh and then everyone turns around and says "See! We were right! Everything's okay. You niggers are behind because you don't have the requisite brain power." We're lazy and stupid, Dave?

And don't revisit that asinine intellectual bullshit you ran down with Nulan.

Let me ask you another question. Do you consider yourself "Black"? If so, do you think you can compete with your white and Asian counterparts?

Ding!

Undercover Black Man said...

And what the fuck are talking about Black and Brown people can't compete toe-to-toe with white and Asian counterparts?

DeAngelo: Only 50 percent of black students manage to graduate from high school. Whereas 75 percent of white students do. And 77 percent of Asian students. (Source.)

That’s what I’m talking about.

Undercover Black Man said...

Let me ask you another question. Do you consider yourself "Black"? If so, do you think you can compete with your white and Asian counterparts?

Yah, I consider myself black. And I know my intellectual limitations. I think my SATs were 1260. I would've been over my head at an Ivy League school.

mel said...

Ok, so I'm new to this.
My name is Mel, and my ONE anonymous post (...not the one giving you crap, Deangelo) was this one:

UBM said: "Who knows? All we know for sure is they can't."

Who knows? I have met an awful lot of people who seem to KNOW that it isn't because black and brown folks are just dumb.

They seem to KNOW it isn't because all black and brown families don't care about education.

They also seem to KNOW that regardless of income, there's a gap in achievement.

They seem to KNOW that regardless of geographic location, there's a gap.

They seem to KNOW that there's ONE consistent factor - Skin color.
Hmmm.....now why is that?
Have you studied systemic racism in education? Have you studied the bias (hidden or not) imposed on children of color by their primarily white middle class teachers?

Do you have children?

I have a daughter, and I tell you, I don't see one good reason that I should KNOW my white daughter is FAR more likely to: read at grade level, succeed in all academic areas, graduate from high school, avoid unjust disciplinary action, go to college, and bond with her teachers every day of her life, than your child, strictly because of the color of her skin.

But that's the reality.

UBM said: "So let's focus as a nation on bolstering a "culture of achievement" within black communities, within black families."

Great idea. Let's do it. But first, shouldn't we be truthful about why that achievement isn't being allowed to thrive?

UBM said: "And let's not tacitly tell black kids, "Don't worry, you can always use your skin color to catch a break further on down the road."

Catch a BREAK??? Catch a BREAK?? Isn't that what MY kid is doing every single day? White folks have been catching a break for a long time.... She was born into "catching a break" just like I was.

LennieG said...

And I know my intellectual limitations. I think my SATs were 1260. I would've been over my head at an Ivy League school.

That's actually where I don't agree with you. You are limited only by your mind. Unless a person is mentally retarded (which you are not) you have no limitations.

You would have done fine at an ivy league school.

And another thing. Whatever limitations you believe you might have truly have nothing to do with race. I don't believe for a second that whites or Asians are smarter than blacks.

There are many factors which point to the reasons why less blacks graduate from high school. And intellect is not one of them.

I say that as a person who has worked in the school system and worked with "special education" black children one on one. 90% of the ones I worked with were misplaced. They had no business in special eduation.....and were there due to behavior and lack of motivation.

Undercover Black Man said...

You would have done fine at an ivy league school.

Lynn, my thing is: Why would I possibly want to put myself in an academic position where I'm competing against a bunch of students who rocked 1400 or higher on their SATs?

That wouldn't have been doing me a favor. It would've put me at a disadvantage.

LennieG said...

I have mixed emotions about SAT "numbers". No one can judge you by a number.

To believe you would have struggled in ivy league is to believe that every graduate of that school is smarter than you are. I don't buy it.

mel said...

UBM said: "Lynn, my thing is: Why would I possibly want to put myself in an academic position where I'm competing against a bunch of students who rocked 1400 or higher on their SATs?"

UBM, as DeAngelo pointed out --- are you forgetting about those students who got in cuz daddy went there, or owns one of the halls, or cuz they got a water polo scholarship?

And AGAIN - Why is it that black kids aren't graduating? Aren't scoring 1400s on the SAT? ARE disproportionately enrolled in Special Ed classes, expelled and unjustly disciplined?

Qadree said...

I've only heard a few people speak out against legacy admissions in ivy league schools, the black republicans who argue against affirmative action never bring this up, they would have to speak against Bush and his legacy status if they did. Bush actually said that schools should get rid of legacy admissions, but you don't him doing anything about it.

From what I've read the legacy admissions result in a higher percentage of potentially unqualified whites being admitted than affirmative action does for unqualified blacks. "Legacy" is just the ivy league term for "good ol' boys" in my opinion.

I don't see how anyone can talk about merit based admissions without speaking out against legacy admissions.

Undercover Black Man said...

And AGAIN - Why is it that black kids aren't graduating? Aren't scoring 1400s on the SAT? ARE disproportionately enrolled in Special Ed classes, expelled and unjustly disciplined?

Uhhh... cuz the white man wants to hold 'em down??

Giddy Green said...

I'm so glad you were honest about your own insecurities, UBM. As a black Ivy League graduate, let me tell you, your mental picture is BULLSHIT.

Just like in the rest of the world, there are a few off the charts smart people there. A large bunch of smarter than average folks like yourself, and a few complete fuckin' frauds...that that description held true for all races.

Bush is an Ivy League grad and you are still intimidated? Bush went to Yale and you think you couldn't hang? You're kidding, right?

Stop focusing on the black underclass and look at the black middle class (like yourself) who benefitted from affirmative action. Do you see a bunch of frauds there? Are Barack Obama, Dr. Ben Cason, Ray McGuire and all the other black achievers in medicine, law, business, goverment, journalism and many other fields less competent than their white counterparts? No, in fact they are usually better. Because nobody GAVE them shit. They had a harder way to go, and the only reason they got an opportunity to achieve at all was because affirmative action forces the system to recognize their superior talents.

If you want to deny opportunities to kids who climb their way out of the ghetto because your pissed at those who don't....well, that don't make no sense.

As for when is it supposed to end, it ends when shit is fixed. Justice shouldn't be on a timer.

odocoileus said...

Dave, you took the SAT's before they were renormed, so 1260 is a perfectly respectable Ivy League score. Not necc. @ Harvard or Yale, but the others - Cornell, Brown, Columbia, Penn, sure.

What ending Aff Am does is open up the bottom ten percent of the seats in each class to mediocre white kids. What's billed as a movement to end reverse discrimination is actually just special pleading for second raters. Since elite colleges have never admitted students purely on merit, the question of whether black students have the merit to attend is a red herring. There is always plenty of room at the Ivies for dumb ass rich kids, and dumb ass Canadian hockey players.

Nothing remarkable about that, though. Given a chance, any privileged group will always vote to give itself more privilege. That's why Connerly hasn't really achieved anything. Telling white people that they're wonderful and ought to have more is hardly a difficult sell.

Connerly has never been comfortable with a black identity. He's been agitating for some time now about creating a separate legal category so that the govt. doesn't classify him as black.

All that said, Aff Am has been in decline for decades, and the decline will continue. Black students don't really gain anything by being promoted above their level of ability. So, no great loss.

The key issue isn't college, anyway. The real issue is the failure of such a big chunk of black America to establish a foothold in the skilled trades. No community, of any color, needs more lawyers or sociology grads or (dare I say it), humanities grads who write arts criticism. Every community can use more good diesel mechanics and plumbers.

Chris R. Cosby said...

undercover black man said...So let's focus as a nation on bolstering a "culture of achievement" within black communities, within black families. And let's not tacitly tell black kids, "Don't worry, you can always use your skin color to catch a break further on down the road."

David, where do you come up with this crap? You are beginning to sound like either Cosby or Chris R(ock)...

Do you understand the term, 'falling on deaf ears'...?

LennieG said...

Bush is an Ivy League grad and you are still intimidated? Bush went to Yale and you think you couldn't hang? You're kidding, right?

LOL! I was just about to make that exact point.

Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"Should race-based affirmative action be a permanent feature of American life"

No, and that is why the system of White supremacy needs to be dismantled. Because that System is the only affirmative action program that counts and that is real.

"Why would I possibly want to put myself in an academic position where I'm competing against a bunch of students who rocked 1400 or higher on their SATs?

That wouldn't have been doing me a favor. It would've put me at a disadvantage."


Now follow the logic on that one:

In other words, David, given that I am a Yale University graduate, I am inherently smarter than you.

Smarter, means having more insight. Yes?

That means you should shut up and take what I say at face value. Yes?

It also means that you shouldn't even think about competing against me.

It also means that I, word for word, am likely to be a better writer than you are.

Isn't that true?

Again:

"That wouldn't have been doing me a favor. It would've put me at a disadvantage."

Wouldn't it thus be safe to conclude that you refuse to engage in a writer's competition with me because you know you would be at a disadvantage?

Christina said...

Man, I remember having this type of conversation on this board before. It was painful.

UBM, I think you are far too wedded to the idea of quantifiable intelligence. SATs and IQ tests have their place. But tell me, what is REALLY the difference between a person who has a 1400 SAT and a person with a 1260 SAT? What does that 140 point difference entail? What can the average person with a 1400 SAT do that you can't do?

I got a 1290 on my SATs, does that mean I somehow am smarter than you are?

You and I both compete against Ivy Leaguers every day, and I'm sure neither of us are above our heads. I don't think every Ivy Leaguer is so smart, otherwise I should be mopping floors somewhere with my mere BS from an HBCU. Am I smart enough to have been a top-notch engineer or something? Nope, I don't have the math aptitude for that. But it doesn't mean that we're not smart or somehow over our heads in the fields that we chose.

And I also feel like you have this sense that everyone in an Ivy League school (or really, any position of leadership) got to that place solely on their merits. We just see in life that kind of thing isn't true; there are many reasons why people end up where they do. Including at Ivy League schools.

"So let's focus as a nation on bolstering a "culture of achievement" within black communities, within black families."

I'm with you there. But I feel sometimes as if some of the things you argue suggest we should just give up because black folks are naturally stupid.

Undercover Black Man said...

SATs and IQ tests have their place. But tell me, what is REALLY the difference between a person who has a 1400 SAT and a person with a 1260 SAT?

I appreciate the thoughtful comment, Christina. But the relevant question is: What's the difference between a school where the average SAT score is 1400 and a school where the average SAT score is 1200?

Obviously, the difference is rather profound. One is much more selective, and presumably much more academically rigorous.

Now, in which of those hypothetical schools would I better fit?

I have no problem accepting the notion that some human beings are more intelligent than others... and that, generally speaking, a "cognitive elite" tends to rise in wealth and status in America.

The fact that 42 percent of the freshman class at UC Berkeley is Asian-American (2006) isn't the result of a "Good Ol' Boys network."

All the affirmative action programs in the world won't allow a person to out-compete smarter, harder-working rivals in a free marketplace.

Anonymous said...

I think the talk of "white supremacy" is ridiculous--perhaps a feature of America decades and decades ago but surely nothing impacting black american life today.

I mean, yes, whites are certainly "supreme" in certain ways in America--they have pretty much originated everything that makes the country a world power/great nation. Frankly we should to be thankful for this.

But "white supremacy" that implies conspiratorial ill-will towards blacks? It doesn't exist--at least not on any significant scale.

And if you start talking about a sort of "white supremacy" that whites unconsciously reinforce and which explains the state of black america--well the burden of proof is on the person making this accusation. You ever notice how this line of talk never transcends its aura of pseudo-intellectualism and never actually explains anything?

Today blacks don't fail because of whites--they fail because of themselves.

abe said...

forget to add my name to the above

Christina said...

I misunderstood your point, UBM; yes, I can see your point regarding schools.

I also see your point regarding "cognitive elites" -- I don't think it's any great shakes to say that some people are smarter than other people.

I'm not entirely sure I'm ready to say that the population of Asian students at Berkeley has something to do with inherent intelligence. I just don't know for sure. I do think it is possible that there's such a "model minority" myth going on with Asians that some of the lesser stars among them ones might be carried along on the tide.

But I also think that many of those kids work damn hard, and that's a mindset that definitely merits replication.

Qadree said...

The fact that 42 percent of the freshman class at UC Berkeley is Asian-American (2006) isn't the result of a "Good Ol' Boys network."

Most of that is the result of an insane focus on getting their children into ivy league schools. The system they have set up for those kids in Asia is like a prison camp. They wake up early and follow a strict routine that governs everything from when they eat to how much contact they can have with the opposite sex.

They set up these schools with one purpose and that's to get these kids into ivy league schools. It's rare for those kids apply to the top schools in their own country.

There's an article about it here:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/27/asia/school.php

I saw a documentary about these prep schools, but I can't remember the name of it. They are well prepared and conditioned through systematic routines from a young age. If it wasn't for this systematic push the numbers would probably look different.

odocoileus said...

Again, for people Dave's age, the only colleges with avg SAT's of 1400 were MIT & Caltech. Back in the day, a Chinese American girl I went to school with got into Yale w/ 1260 score (and a straight A gpa and impressive achievement list).

A 1260 score circa 1980 is comparable to 1350 post renorming. If you've got straight A's and a good achievement list, that will get you into an Ivy or two.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Oh, and that's another thing. I never got straight A's. Can't recall my high-school G.P.A.... probably a shade over 3.0.

Which is the reason all this Ivy League talk is purely hypothetical. I was recruited by nobody.

odocoileus said...

The fact that 42 percent of the freshman class at UC Berkeley is Asian-American (2006) isn't the result of a "Good Ol' Boys network."

No, but the fact that the freshman class at Berkley isn't 75 per cent Asian is precisely the result of white people rigging the system to benefit themselves. If it was done purely on merit, Asians would be a substantial majority.

Which makes me wonder when some enterprising brother will launch a suit on behalf of the Asian American students who are passed over in favor of whites with lower grades and test scores. This I would love to see.

Hmm. Maybe that enterprising brother is looking at me in the mirror.

odocoileus said...

Which is the reason all this Ivy League talk is purely hypothetical. I was recruited by nobody.

I'm guessing this was because you were going to school in DC. Otherwise, somebody would have called you.

I scored 730V and 630M. A guy from MIT tried to talk me into going there. I knew better - the average math score there being over 700.

Christina said...

I was, hm. 760V, 530M, or something like that. Maybe 560M, 730V. Whatever it was, there was a WIDE disparity in the math and verbal scores. I was getting brochures from colleges every day -- they sent them right to my (almost all white) high school -- and I got to hear my little buddies explain to me that it probably was happening because I was black. Good times.

odocoileus said...

I dunno, Fisher. I'm thinking that open admissions destroyed the Sorbonne, and wrecked French higher ed in general. The exception being the private, highly restrictive Ecoles. Maybe you know differently. You're a lot more knowledgeable about Europe than I am.

Michael Fisher said...

This whole discussion is completely inane because first off no one here has defined what the hell is being talked about.

Such as what is an "Asian". Or what is a "white" person. Or, what is a "black" person.

If Mills can be a "black" person given how Mills looks then most any "white" person can be a "black" person.

So unless anyone here precisely defines what a black person, a white person, and an Asian person actually looks like and then correlates this look with SAT scores and various achievements (each of which have to be precisely defined as well), unless this is done, everything discussed here is unscientific bladderdash.

The relevance of this discussion is thus purely political. It serves to advocate a number of unjust ideas such as:

(1) Certain groups of people have a natural right to rule and to mistreat other groups of people.

(2) Certain groups of people are assigned a subservient position by nature and are to accept the same.

(3) Resources should not be allocated to group (2) beyond such appropriate to their natural station (such as wasting an Ivy League education with the superior resources an Ivy League college has to offer).

This is, as I pointed out elsewhere, pure racist Nazi propaganda.

Moreover it is a crude version thereof.

I think it would behoove everyone in here who is not consciously pushing this bullshit, to put their thinking caps on and think logically about these questions.

My question is why Mills keeps pushing this unscientifically nonsensical though politically significant stuff.

The "not conscious about the unscientific" aspect can be ruled out because Mills has both been explained why this stuff is scientifiaclly non-sensical and has lauded me for "deboning" "racial realist" nee racist Ian Jobling the content of my debonmet of that guy was precisely the exposure of this unscientific argumentation.

So what's Mills' agenda here?

I've come to the conclusion that in practical terms David Mills is a straight up racist who tries to make the racist Nazi dreck he peddles palatable by pretending to be a "black" person.

I can not, for the life of me, come up with any other conclusion and I have truly tried because I actually like the guy.

However, truth is truth.

Michael Fisher said...

odolicious...

"I dunno, Fisher. I'm thinking that open admissions destroyed the Sorbonne, and wrecked French higher ed in general."

What, the Sorbonne's buildings have been blown up? The professors killed off? What do you mean by the phrase "open admissions destroyed the Sorbonne"?

Now as to academic achievement. Again, precisely define the biological entities "black person", "white person" and "Asian person" and then correlate it with precisely defined "academic achievement", do that and then then you can speculate about what did or did not destroy the Sorbonne or any other such institution. But don't forget to define what you mean by "destroy" in the first place.

odocoileus said...

My understanding is that open admissions to elite universities like the Sorbonne permanently damaged the quality of instruction and reputation of those schools.

odocoileus said...

You seemed to be advocating open admissions to top level universities. I understand that something like this is done in Germany too. How has it worked out?

I'm not suggesting that US ethnic categories are an issue in Europe. Obviously, the ethnic categories we're using here are specific to the US, and only exist to the extent that they're socially defined in the US. They are what they because self identified white people say they are.

Michael Fisher said...

odolicious...

"My understanding is that open admissions to elite universities like the Sorbonne permanently damaged the quality of instruction..."

Huh? The quality of instruction by definition is a function of the instructor and the not instructed.

"You seemed to be advocating open admissions to top level universities."

I did? Me thinks not. Where did I advocate such a thing?

"I understand that something like this is done in Germany too.

No, Germany does not have an open admission system.

In order to enter university one has to first pass the "Abitur" which is a rigorous college prep school exam and which only students who have gone through Gymnasium (which lasts from 6th grade to 13th grade) are allowed to take. The German academic selection (tracking) process thus begins already at age ten.

Michael Fisher said...

odolicious...

"I'm not suggesting that US ethnic categories are an issue in Europe."

No offense, odolicious, but again, it is important not to think in sloppy terms. What do you mean by "ethnic". What is an "ethnic" category?

Moreover are you suggesting that "Europeans" don't define themselves as "white" or "non-white"?

Michael Fisher said...

By the way, odocoileus. No offense i keep typing "odolicious" by mistake. It's not meant to offend. I'm just not used to the term

Michael Fisher said...

By the way. The average Ivy League college graduate would have an extremely hard time competing academically at a German public (as most of them are) university.

odocoileus said...

None taken.

I'm using self identification as the standard. So in Cali, people who self identify as Korean, Japanese, Chinese, as well as the Brahman and merchant caste Hindus.

Again, I'm not claiming that these categories have any objective existence outside of what people say they have.

Undercover Black Man said...

Wouldn't it thus be safe to conclude that you refuse to engage in a writer's competition with me because you know you would be at a disadvantage?

Uhhh... could someone please tell Michael Fisher that I write better than him?

A "writer's competition"... goodness gracious.

Michael Fisher said...

"Uhhh... could someone please tell Michael Fisher that I write better than him?"

No way. How could it even be possible? I have better SAT scores than you, a superior education from Yale and an 800 year old elite university, the Ruprecht-Karls University in Germany a/k/a Heidelberg University, my IQ hovers around 156 or so (sometimes better sometimes worse). I am elite. You are non-elite. By nature I must be a better writer than you.

Heck. My 14 year old daughter can write better than you.

So say my (and her) jeans, eh, I mean genes.

Nope. You're just avoiding a writer's run off because your innate genetic inability to out write me would be exposed.

How sad.

abe said...

quote: "The relevance of this discussion is thus purely political. It serves to advocate a number of unjust ideas such as:

(1) Certain groups of people have a natural right to rule and to mistreat other groups of people."

No, no one is advocating this. Far easier to construct strawmen than to actually consider the substance of what's being said. Who has really advocated the idea that certain people have a "natural" right to rule and mistreat others? Your position amounts to "don't hold blacks responsible for anything or you're evil."

quote: "(2) Certain groups of people are assigned a subservient position by nature and are to accept the same."

I read this thread and I didn't see anyone saying blacks should be subservient. Where did you say this? And just how do you happen to know what some people are claiming better than themselves? Once again: "Hold blacks responsible for anything and you're evil."

"(3) Resources should not be allocated to group (2) beyond such appropriate to their natural station (such as wasting an Ivy League education with the superior resources an Ivy League college has to offer)."

Society should not have to take care of certain groups as if they're children unable to fend for themselves. Affirmative Action is embarrassing in this day and age and degrades black self-worth.

You don't do any favors to a black kid who is merely a decent student by putting him in an environment in which s/he is outclassed. An Ivy League Education does not "bestow" success--it's the very selection process by which students are admitted that makes elite schools remarkable. If black students are not an asset to the schools the same way other students are, then yes, these black students really have no business being there.


quote: "I think it would behoove everyone in here who is not consciously pushing this bullshit, to put their thinking caps on and think logically about these questions."

Standing up for logic in a post that endlessly violates it is, admittedly, a nice touch.

Thordaddy said...

So now we can add Starnes to the list of black supremacists who espouse non-racial "racist" theories of white supremacy.

And quite inexplicably, just like Fisher and Nulan, he has miraculously transcended this paradigm of which all his other brothers and sisters are unfortunately stuck.

The Good Ol' boy network meaning to read the Global System of White Supremacy meaning to read "Dopamine Hegemony."

Starnes, you even have the gall to make your theory unfalsifiable with the idea that affirmative action is evidence of white supremacy. Which would lead one to conclude that you are against AA. But you're not!

But more importantly, you, Fisher and Nulan are the very evidence that undermines your identical non-racial "racist" theory of white supremacy.

This is noxious stuff of which one is hard-pressed to explain why so many blacks want to buy in to it?

Michael Fisher said...

abe...

"No, no one is advocating this. Far easier to construct strawmen...

Standing up for logic in a post that endlessly violates it.."


Well abe, then why don't you begin and define "white person", black person", and "Asian person" for us.

What do each of these look like?

Undercover Black Man said...

Heck. My 14 year old daughter can write better than you.

Actually, she could probably give me a run for my money.

Not you, though, Fish.

Thordaddy said...

fisher,

Why do you keep insisting that only "science" can tell us whether there are races when our own eyes will do? Science tells us nothing about races and you go about endlessly pointing this out.

What you don't do is tell us why the traditional understanding of race of which we've come to know though our own eyes is illegitimate?

odocoileus said...

Society should not have to take care of certain groups as if they're children unable to fend for themselves. Affirmative Action is embarrassing in this day and age and degrades black self-worth.

Like white legacy admissions? Like white athletes? Obviously, if non merit based admissions really degraded anyone's self worth, well off, well connected white people would eschew them. They don't.

There never was a time when elite universities selected their students strictly by merit. Personal connections, socio economic class, ethnic group, region of origin, etc. have always been considerations. There was never a golden age.

. If black students are not an asset to the schools the same way other students are, then yes, these black students really have no business being there.

The real goal here is to keep as many black people as possible out of good schools and good jobs. That is to say, the new goal is the same as the old goal, in different rhetorical clothing. It stems from fear of what would be called caste pollution if it took place in Hindu society.

As it happens, I don't believe that Aff Am for elite colleges does black Americans a whole lot of good, so I say, let it go.

But I also don't confuse the motives of those campaigning so fiercely for Aff Am's termination with something benign.

Going back over ten years ago, a spokesman for one of the leading anti Aff Am organizations boasted in a public forum that he had kept some black students out of college. He was happy, proud even. There was much backtracking and denial afterwards, of course, but keeping black people out has always been the primary motive.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ The real goal here is to keep as many black people as possible out of good schools and good jobs.

But see, odocoileus, if black students were displaying as high a degree of academic achievement as Asians... it would make no sense to keep them out of good schools and good jobs. Because good schools stay good by having the best students. And good jobs can only be performed excellently by excellent personnel.

So, at the end of the day, who's in control of one's destiny? Rock the 3.8 GPA and the 1440 SAT, and the world is your oyster.

Drop out of high school -- as half of all African American kids do -- and lock down a spot in the underclass... perhaps for your own kids as well.

The answer is better black students.

Dougfp said...

^ "My IQ hovers around 156 or so..."

How often do you test your IQ? I'm serious...I haven't been tested since 7th grade. Nor heard anyone refer to their IQ since freshman year in college.

odocoileus said...

But see, odocoileus, if black students were displaying as high a degree of academic achievement as Asians... it would make no sense to keep them out of good schools and good jobs.

Well, some black women are displaying a high degree of achievement. Spellman has recently admitting students with 1300 plus SATs and comparable GPA's.

That said, members of the the anti Aff Am movement aren't particularly rational people. Most of them want a legal way to strike back against the black intelligentsia. They're hoping, irrationally, that ending Aff Am will end black people graduating from college, or at least, from the better colleges.

Here in Cali, at least, the ban on Aff Am has probably helped more black students graduate, by putting them into colleges where they can be truly competitive. Still, this wasn't the intention.

In the UT Law school case, one of the white students who brought suit had actually flunked out of undergrad. He still thought he had a right to get into a good law school ahead of the black applicants. The mind boggles at this sense of entitlement.

mel said...

UBM said :
So, at the end of the day,
who's in control of one's destiny?

Got it, Black kids need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, plain and simple.... I mean, the SWS has convinced 'em they're total fuckups, and their teachers and administrators have reinforced the same idea, and they've already been put in a postion of having to work 85 times as hard, and now UBM is gonna pitch in his two cents - "Rah, Rah, c'mon kids, you can do it...no handouts.... suck it up!"


UBM said: Drop out of high school -- as half of all African American kids do -- and lock down a spot in the underclass... perhaps for your own kids as well.

Wait, you mean what our parents do have an effect on us?! hmmmm and if they dropped out, or were, say, kept out of decent schools and "locked" themselves a "spot in the underclass" then we should work THAT much harder?

So, if black and brown kids are already working 85 times as hard as their white and asian counterparts to overcome systemic racism (so I exaggerated...make it 75 times as hard) - PLUS their parents were those types who just went and "locked" themselves a spot in the underclass - Those kids now should work, say, 95 times as hard to succeed in this society.

Hey, no problem. Let's just go break the news, UBM....and tell 'em they just need to be, in your words "better black students" (95 times better).

Nothin' like blaming it on the kids.

Christina said...

I don't think UBM is racist (like it matters what I think) But Michael, you have really made me think about the whole idea of racial categorization when you said that if UBM can call himself black, anyone can.

We are so hung up on what we think are all these very important racial differences -- dark skin (even though some South Asians have skin as dark as mine), large lips (hello, Angelina Jolie), flat noses, nappy hair, whatever. That can't be all that makes a black person, because there are plenty of black people who have none of these traits.

What if races have nothing to do with all these outward traits we're all so damn worried about. What if it turns out that the human race is divided up by, oh, I don't know. The length of your thighbone, or something. And it turns out that all the people with thighbones between a certain number of inches are going to be super-smart. They're the cognitive elites! Then we would have thigh-ism or anti-thighism or what have you.

Humans have been so misled over the generations by things we can allegedly can see with our own eyes. Our own eyes told us that the world was flat, and that the sun rotated around the Earth. Our own eyes lead to lots of superstitious nonsense like believing in ghosts. Our own eyes can be wrong about a lot of things. Perhaps what we observe as "races" is just another set of illusions, like the illusion of the flat earth. Or differences that genetically are so minor that they really don't mean as much as supremacists (of any race) think they do.

That doesn't mean that the cultural interplay is nonexistent, though. There are issues that need to be addressed. Anyway, I'm not used to debating this as much as some of you guys are so let me stop before I start to sound REAL stupid.

Qadree said...

Damn, I thought more people were familiar with the concept of race as a social construct.

People believe in these arbitrary divisions, we create words for them, we act on them, therefore they do exist, but only because people believe in it. There is no genetic trait, even if you're talking about what we can physically see, that can absolutely determine what we've come to refer to as race.

I use racial terminology because I haven't come up with anything better that will still allow me to communicate with most people, but that's the only reason I still use those terms.

Michael Fisher said...

Christina...

"What if races have nothing to do with all these outward traits we're all so damn worried about. What if it turns out that the human race is divided up by, oh, I don't know. The length of your thighbone, or something."

Very astute. Exactly.

"That doesn't mean that the cultural interplay is nonexistent, though. There are issues that need to be addressed."

Again, very astute.

Now that you've done away with the ridiculous genetic b.s. you cn concentrate on the real question.

So what is "culture"?

Bottom line it is how people behave.

If people do not behave in a certain ways that are edifferent from the way other people behave (exercise culture) and it is not because of genetics, then they must behave that way because of an influence outside of their biology.

Thus the next question would be, what is that influence?

Christina said...

"Damn, I thought more people were familiar with the concept of race as a social construct."

I wish I could have been smarter for you, qadree. That's why I'm always afraid to talk in these conversations, because someone will pop up to tell me what I should have known all along.

I am familiar with the idea of race as a social construct, though. Sometimes conversations just help crystallize things for me. I'll go back to just listening in.

Giddy Green said...

Don't be embarrassed or intimidated, Christina. Your honesty helps this conversation.

Oh man, I am so disappointed in you, UBM! I cannot believe that you are not hearing...or acknowledging...what folks are saying to you on this thread. Your belief in the system - even as those who have achieved within it at the highest level tell you it's a crock - is amazing to me.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Yeah, well, I don't let other people tell me what to believe.

Nor do I let them intimidate me out of speaking my mind.

Qadree said...

Christina, though your comment did prompt my response, I wasn't directing my comment solely at you. I would have used your name or quoted you if I was specifically addressing you.

There seem to be quite a few people leaving comments that believe in absolute definitions of race and since I did use race based references in my previous comments I wanted to clarify where I stood.

Trying to solve race based problems with race based solutions will never work simply because our belief in race is the problem. Whenever we try to formulate solutions that treat race as something absolute we just strengthen and perpetuate this flawed system.

Race was never meant to be a legitimate way of classifying human beings. Ironically, the most interesting information I've read on this subject has come from research on race based medicine.

mel said...

UBM said:

"Uhhh... could someone please tell Michael Fisher that I write better than him?"

--- Or do you you mean "better than HE?"

Undercover Black Man said...

^ That too.

Thordaddy said...

qadree,

The problem with your notion that "race" isn't absolute is that it necessitates the idea that "racism" isn't absolute either.

If "race" is a social construct then so is "racism" and those that talk of theories of white supremacy admit that their theory is not abolute. Meaning, their theory is at best a smaller phenomenon in a much larger theory.

This has allowed the Fishers, Nulans and Starnes to transcend their own theory of non-racial "racist" theory of white supremacy. Amazing fellows!

Thordaddy said...

odocoileus says

That said, members of the the anti Aff Am movement aren't particularly rational people. Most of them want a legal way to strike back against the black intelligentsia. They're hoping, irrationally, that ending Aff Am will end black people graduating from college, or at least, from the better colleges.

The irrationality is in the implication that blacks of today are suffering like blacks of the past.

From this springs forth the idea that this "suffering" by past blacks must be transformed into recompense for those who haven't suffered by those who have committed no injustice.

Blacks can no more claim credit for past sufferings than can "whites" claim past credit for their ancestor's accomplishments, right?

odocoileus said...

TD, you didn't even attempt to refute my claim. You invented a new claim, and attributed it to me.

I've never made any statements about past suffering. I've never made any statements about the need for compensation.

Not to mention the fact that Aff Am at elite colleges tends overwhelming to benefit two types of "black" students: those from the Caribbean and Africa, whose ancestors were not part of US slavery, and the biracial children of black fathers and college educated, white mothers. FWIW, having a white, college educated mother makes a big difference in a person's life outcomes all across the board - see the ongoing election as exhibit A.

Thordaddy said...

ode,

If AA is premised on irrationality, can there still be an irrational anti-AA contigent?

Secondly, I didn't attribute you anything, but rather, identified the irrational motivation for the pro-AA side. You add to this irrationality by citing the fact that AA hasn't really been benefitting those it was intended to benefit, namely, American descendants of African slaves.

Qadree said...

The problem with your notion that "race" isn't absolute is that it necessitates the idea that "racism" isn't absolute either.

If "race" is a social construct then so is "racism" and those that talk of theories of white supremacy admit that their theory is not abolute. Meaning, their theory is at best a smaller phenomenon in a much larger theory.


Thordaddy, your logic is flawed. Racism is a real world byproduct of the belief in race. It exists and has real world consequences because people are acting on this belief. Accepting that race is a social construct doesn't mean that the actions of those who believe otherwise are imaginary or theoretical.

Thordaddy said...

qadree,

The flawed logic is claiming that one can have a derivative (racism) of something that does not exist (race).

Again, the logical conclusion, assuming one precludes the existence of races, is that any "byproduct," i.e., "racism" must be a social-construction.

The question is how truthful is this social-construction?

I say as long as the meme that blacks of today suffer like blacks of yesterday then this socially-constructed "racism" doesn't represent anything other than subjective truth to those that hold it.

Anonomono said...

Obama is probably more well-liked than Oprah among blacks, even though everyone has heard of Oprah for 20+ years.

RC said...

Christina, I'm a thighist, and I like feet too!