Monday, December 3, 2007

Stakes Be High, pt. 2

I enjoyed the first round of this. Now I get to hit my man DeAngelo Starnes with QUESTION #2. Our conversation will proceed in the comments section. Readers are invited to poke and prod us both.

As I’ve mentioned in the past, I like to study white racialists. I have been doing it for years. What strikes me about their thought process is that hardcore white racialists – such as those who gather at Jared Taylor’s American Renaissance site – act like aggrieved minorities. They view themselves as powerless victims of some large, sinister mechanism of social control (liberalism/egalitarianism, international capitalism, Jewish supremacy, whatever).

Why do they feel this way? Because outspoken white racialists are pushed to the outer fringes of America’s political discourse. (Jared Taylor and David Duke are not welcome voices in the mainstream media.)

Because white people can lose their jobs and face huge public humiliation when they insult black folks. (See Don Imus, Michael Richards, Dog the Bounty Hunter, etc.)

Because demographic trends indicate that whites could shrink to a numerical minority in the United States by 2050.

So I ask you, DeAngelo:
QUESTION #2: If there is an effective system of white supremacy shaping our world – especially in the United States – then why are the most race-conscious white partisans marginalized, scorned and punished? Why is it hip to be “anti-racist”? And why is the U.S. non-white population being allowed to grow, thereby reducing the political and economic influence of white people?


DeAngelo Starnes said...

Whew! Dave you came a little strong on this one. Very cool. There are a few components to your question and a few components to my response.

First, according to Neely Fuller, there are four basic stages of a white supremacy system: establishment, maintenance, expansion, and refinement. Key to the maintenance, expansion, and refinement of that system is deception. So when you talk about it being "hip to be anti-racist," I think it's the same as the dude who says he's for women's liberation but goes home to beat his wife's ass. Or the esteemed Senator from Idaho - Larry Craig - who claims not be gay but is busy playing with, and fantasizing about, a dude's dick and balls. (I personally care nothing about anyone's sexuality, but I do care about hypocrisy). So many who claim to be anti-racists often, in my experience, turn out to be closet racists. Because in their speech, they may talk some politically correct shit. But what do they do? Do they take advantage of the system? Do they put their money where their mouth is and fight racial injustice? How many high profile people have given more than lip service to racial injustice?

So there's deception in the sense that while the mouth is moving in an anti-racist manner, the actions don't follow through. They talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.

White racialists are marginalized because they are that member of the family who is busy telling the family secrets to the world. You know how your mother (at least mine) is notorius for telling your friends and spouse stories about how you shitted on yourself when you were in the seventh grade? That's these muthafuckas. Busy spilling the family secrets and looking foolish while doing it. David Duke sounds stupid and appeals to the Pabst Blue Ribbon/trailer park crowd, but the real white racialist is someone like a Karl Rove, who devises schemes to take away non-white persons' right to vote. I'm more concerned with a Karl Rove than I am with David Duke. Because I can see David Duke coming. Karl Rove might dive a knife in my back during a cocktail party after he's bought me my ninth martini.

Regarding the growth of the nonwhite population, I don't think it's a matter of white allowance. Like Richard Pryor said on Is It Something I Said? "Shortage of white people lately. What happened? Y'all stopped fuckin'?" Then "niggas is fuckin' .. white folks tired of our ass, too. They gon' find them some new niggas." And that's this whole immigration thang.

While you can't stop nobody from fucking and getting pregnant, you can control the babies. Expanded terrorist, criminal, and immigration laws will control our political and economic influence. You can control that influence by controlling the images they see and hear about in the media. You can control that influence by incarcerating them. You can control that shit by not giving 'em jobs. You can control that shit by cutting off access to political and economic success by using all of the above means.


Undercover Black Man said...

Deep. I know nothing about Dr. Fuller's theories, so I must leave that untouched. But I do have a follow-up question:

How was the system of white supremacy served by the policy of "affirmative action" and race-based admissions policies that increased the number of black students at elite universities?

DeAngelo Starnes said...

Good follow-up question.

RE: affirmative action, it seems to be a move to open up opportunities. But who controls those laws? Not nonwhite people.

I think affirmative action, and civil rights laws in general, were necessary for a white supremacy system to prevent systematic riots by nonwhite folks. And car bombs. If Israel was smart, they'd have affirmative action and civil rights. Because then the Palestinians would THINK there's progress and that they're a an equal partner. And then Israel could control the number of folks that make it. But those muthafuckas ain't as slick as they are over here.

Now, if the U.S. went the way of Israel and kept that Jim Crow shit up? Bruhs would be blowing shit up instead of playing in the NBA. Instead of rapping about the Man, they'd be car-bombing. Instead of killing each other, they'd burn some shit up.

However, you have the illusion of inclusion (stolen from Paul Mooney). So you think you might have a real chance because the so-called law says you have that right. But when you examine who really benefits from affirmative action, you might notice that the ones they usually let through are incompetent house jerks like a Clarence Thomas - someone who's gonna argue he made it on the merit of his natural abilities.

I'm not saying that's the case for everyone, but it sure seems that way.

Confession: I benefitted from affirmative action when I went to law school. I was already accepted to a school but got into a more prestigious one when the dean heard me talking shit.

And so I don't want to bite the hand that fed my career. However, I do recognize that the decision was one that no nonwhite person controlled. It was the benevolent vibe of massa that allowed me to read.

Affirmative action grew out of civil rights laws. But one must stop to ask the question: why do nonwhite people need laws to force the dominant culture to allow them equal opportunities for education, jobs, and housing?

White folks don't need civil rights, do they? The only time they need civil rights is a counter to the civil rights they granted us.

So when some "C" white student is denied a seat in college or other educational situations that was granted to a "B" nonwhite student, there's this cry that affirmative action was the evil that's responsible. Not the merits that they claim should control the situation. But reverse racism.

And speaking of reverse racism, that's the stupidest shit to me. When nonwhite folks control a situation and deny a white person access/opportunity, I'll concede it was due to reverse racsim. But when a white person denies a white person in deference to a nonwhite person, that's a decision white supremacy allowed that white person to make.

Affirmative action is a noble concept that is designed to strike a balance the injustice racism infected disallowance of nonwhite opportunity. The fact that there's this general impression that it's a concept that's time has passed is emblematic of white supremacy.

Why? Affirmative action as a strong concept lasted maybe ten, twenty years. Compare that to over two hundred years of chattel slavery and another hundred of Jim Crow. We're supposed to be caught up after that kind of head start?

The fact that we ain't further behind is a testament to the strength.

Bottom-line: non-whites may have lobbied for affirmative action, but they didn't carry that shit across the goal line. The fact that the concept of affirmative action has been eroded almost from its incept along with it seeming to be a bad word in the same manner "liberal" became, proves, to an extent I think, that it was a white supremacist technique of maintenance and refinement.

BTW, before anyone thinks I hate white people, I don't. Just calling it like I see it.

Helluva question. Thanks for the forum.


DeAngelo Starnes said...

One other thing I must note about white racialists. If you compare their rhetoric to what Hitler said, you will notice a similarity. Hitler's words evoked (or is it invoked?) a nationalism that wasn't necessarily racist on the surface but was definitely racist at its core. Why? Because he blamed the easy-to-pick-on groups for the woes the German majority experienced.

Not only do you see the same scheme here, but the same scheme setting a facist state, i.e. taking over the media, taking away civil liberties to fight "terrorism," and blaming "those people" for economic woes.

We might be a year or two from gas ovens disguised as Guantanamo and waterboarding.

Am I paranoid? Answer my first two posts before getting into America in a toilet discussion, folks.

eeaster said...

Good conversation. Again, Dave, a great question bt a faulty premise. White racialists are marginalized because the poor and white are as lowly in the mind of weathy white supremacists as Blacks, jews et al. That's the point that the white racial fringe and their broader quieter supporters never got. We can have Enron, rampant layoff, loss of farm land and more, yet poor whites find everyone but other whites to blame for their circumstances.

They are fighting for the same crumbs left by the military industrial/global trade process that all of us are left out of. The hungry attack the hungry for a crusts of bread but won't band together to make a new loaf. That's the real global impact of white supremacy - the hording of resources by a select few and the inability of others to coalesce for their own benefit.

Affirmative action and other black gains don't put a dent in the white power structure. Not to mention that the vast majority of black wealth still goes ultimately into white hands. More people = more consumers.

And about white folk "allowing" populations to grow, I urge you to read Nixon era African policy, or the various screeds of the famous and filthy rich against overpopulation. Our only saving grace is the balance of good and decent people to combat the power hungry, fascist and megalomaniacal.

There are just as many good white folk as bad, and we are all better off for that. That don't make the evil ones any less evil, or give us any less reason to vigilant (or at the very least paranoid).

Michael Fisher said...

David. Here are the main links for Fuller's sites:

the code

counter racism

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Appreciated, Michael.

Undercover Black Man said...

Here’s why I resist that kind of rhetoric, DeAnge: It gives white people too much credit... and black people too little.

I think the world (and the universe) is more a function of chaos than central planning... at the molecular level and in the realm of human affairs. The march of history has been just too damn chaotic to be the result of a system designed by diabolical white geniuses.

Let me ask two more questions to flesh out my point:

If a system of white supremacy governs America just as thoroughly and effectively as it did 50 years ago... and 150 years ago... and the only difference is that today a few more black folks are getting a few more crumbs off massa’s table... does that mean the entire black freedom struggle, from the abolitionists to Du Bois and A. Phillip Randolph, from the NAACP and the Urban League to Dr. King and the modern Civil Rights Movement, was ultimately useless? A waste of time?

After all, you’re saying that, when confronted with steady resistance from the most intelligent and most courageous of African-American leaders, white supremacists simply refined their game and kept the engine of white supremacy humming along as effectively as before. (Or even more so.)

What good is resistance to the system of white supremacy today if that system took Douglass’s best shot, Du Bois’s best shot, King’s best shot... and kept on ticking?

And if the best of the black race for the past 150 years couldn’t put a dent in the system of white supremacy... if white folks are that sharp and slick, and that masterful at the philosophy and praxis of social control... does that mean only white people can end the system of white supremacy?

Rhetorically, aren’t you putting the fate of black America entirely in the hands of white folks?

DeAngelo Starnes said...

You're throwing body blows, Dave. And as we continue this conversation, I continue to morph the questions I intended to pose later.

But that's okay, because I approach this in the same manner funk bands did in the 70s. If I'm the O'Jays, and the Spinners came out with "I'll Be There," then I gotta come out with "For The Love of Money." I like this challenge you pose. I hope the feeling is reciprocated.

First, making sense of chaos is the great spiritual trip of humanity. It's like when Sly says, "Words in the way." Religious philisophical differences in the way. And religion is very racial. So we lost track of that universal odyssey for making sense out of chaos.

White geniuses didn't create this system. But they took advantage of the questions. Because they aggressively filled in the answers. And when you disputed those answers, they answered with some serious physical violence.

"What good is resistance to the system of white supremacy today if that system took Douglass’s best shot, Du Bois’s best shot, King’s best shot... and kept on ticking?"

My answer: Cuz there might be a Dave Mills or DeAngelo Starnes who might figure this shit out. Or who might, like Roddy McDowell in Battle for Planet of the Apes, insire us outta this mess.

Now, I just recognized the fallacy in the Planet of the Apes comparison. And the racial images some might say I inadvertently invoked. But maybe that's what that movie was about on a symbolic level. Bruhs overcoming this shit. Back to the last post, imagine Will Smith in a movie called "Brotha Who Saves The Planet." Oh, that's out right now under a different title.

Oh, and by the way, our best gave and continue to give white supremacy it's best shot. the failure of the shot of Marcus Garvey, Malcolm X, Nat Turner, Harriet Tubman, MLK, DuBois, and Neely Fuller ain't the problem. It's the fact nonwhite people ain't got on board en masse that's the problem.

In the world, there's a lot more of us than there are of them. If we got on board with a Chavez, Sharpton, Mandela, and the like, the answer to your last question is a negative.

But how many of us are willing to step outside of our comfort zone? And then why?


SJ said...

Sorry to go slightly off-topic, but what do you guys think of this video?

Black Panthers Confronted By Supporters Of Man Who Killed Robbers.

I really felt uncomfortable watching that video. What are the chants of "USA, USA, USA!!" supposed to imply? That the Black Panthers are not American?

cnulan said...

If there is an effective system of white supremacy shaping our world – especially in the United States – then why are the most race-conscious white partisans marginalized, scorned and punished?

Simple, knuckledraggers who make for bad PR in a world so dependent on media as a primary organ of governance are an unacceptable liability. This has been true ever since Bull Connor was taken down by the Birmingham establishment because he was bad for business.

However, given the fact that folks like yourself David, have already completely and uncritically internalized some of the most pernicious racialist memes ever constructed - what further use do TPTB have for knuckle draggers who are lightening rods for opprobrium?

U.S. Elites are themselves not of one mind when it comes to the application and propagation of racist pseudo-science as borne out by the past few days interesting jousting between the NYTimes and WaPo.

The main question I'd like answered is how precisely did you get hoodwinked and bamboozled to serve as a host and conduit of racist thought David? What was the intrinsic appeal of IQ heritability pseudo-science that made you buy into it hook, line, and sinker? What does it mean for the future of Black children when a sizeable portion of nominally Black folks have deeply internalized some of the worst and most dangerous aspects of a deeply racist belief system and have no qualms about applying these to other Black folks of whom they disapprove?

DeAngelo Starnes said...

cnulan, the hostile ad hominem sarcasm is unwelcome to this discussion. You seem to have some valid points to make, but the personal shit ain't adding nothing to the situation. This be a civil discourse. Please add to it when you have something constructive to say, and please express it in a constructive manner.

Thanking you in advance for your anticipated cooperation.

Michael Fisher said...

"QUESTION #2: If there is an effective system of white supremacy shaping our world – especially in the United States – then why are the most race-conscious white partisans marginalized, scorned and punished?"

Simple. The continued, never-ending, 24/7/365 resistance of ordinary black folk in small and large ways requires the continuous refinement of the System. The cost of applying sustained military and terroristic violence upon a non-white population that world-wide numbers some 6 billion is just much too high. Thus deception is key. If you can get people to believe that the system doesn't exists or at least confuse them about the nature of the system (for example, "class society" trumps "Race Society", or as Nulan would put it, Dopamine Society trumps Race Society"), then you have enough breathing room.

DeAngelo Starnes said...

sj, couldn't pull up the video. Would love to so that I can respond to your query. Especially since I had a fascination with the Panthers for the longest.

DeAngelo Starnes said...

Fisher, you echo my point. You don't have to stand over the population with a gun if you can control their minds. You let a few through, give the rest some firewater and crack, and then let the rest fight over the crust of bread, as my good friend eeaster pointed out, rather than them focusing on making a new loaf.

White racialists, who are just as bad off as nonwhites in many respects, will act as overseer and do the dirty work. And you can appeal to their nationalism by talking about God, hershey-highway loving dudes, and baby-killers. As long as you keep them on your side and on the frontlines, you keep the system afloat.

It might take the awakening of white folks to end this shit. After all, the civil rights movement had been in effect with some bruhs out-arguing the simple and refined racialists for years. When white folks' guilt took over, then they agreed to change the rules.

Sad state of affairs, but true. So don't get mad when Jesse and Al follow this blueprint.

Undercover Black Man said...

DeAngelo, I do appreciate this challenge. It’s like in P-Funk; when they brought Glenn Goins into the band, that’s when Garry Shider really started singing his ass off.

Anyways, you wrote: “If we got on board with a Chavez, Sharpton, Mandela, and the like...”

Hugo Chavez? Dude, if you think a socialist wannabe-President-for-Life will create a better society for black folks, I can’t imagine why. Shoot, the Venezualans didn’t even fall for the one. And it was college students who took it to the streets to oppose Chavez’s crackdowns on free speech.

Is there another nation on earth that has provided so many black people with so much education and upward class mobility as this bastion of white supremacy, the United States?

DeAngelo Starnes said...

Dave, Glen Goins like a muthafucka. Was just listening to Mothership Connection and Clones of Dr. Funkenstein. Seriously - but that's a whole obsession we can go on and on about.

I realize this may never get me a book deal or job in Hollywood, but I LOVE Hugo Chavez and Castro.

Chavez is sitting on all that oil and is giving white supremacy the middle finger. Trying to reverse all that "reform" wrought by the World Bank and IMF. And guess who hates that shit?

Don't believe the hype re: the college student rejecting his constitutional reforms. That was a payoff. Check for the behind the scenes skinny. U.S. didn't want those reforms pushed through so they backed the revolt. And when the U.S. backs a revolt, I have absolutely no confidence that it has the people's interest in mind. Can you say Vietnam and Iraq?

To your question, I refer you back to my Israel example. The U.S. has to let a few through the gates if it doesn't want to see perpetual riots, car bombs, and unrest.

Plus they LOVE us even while suppressing us.


cnulan said...

cnulan, the hostile ad hominem sarcasm is unwelcome to this discussion.

Please point out the ad hominem to which you object deangelo?

Not that it matters how I put it, Mills is not going to answer because he's pulled some Jason Whitlocks with regard to judging poor Black folks and arrogating virtues to himself of highly dubious provenance. There's no getting around what he's written in the last 30 days on the question of genetic determinism and IQ. It only stands to reason that this colors much else of his thinking.

At this juncture, his best case looks a whole lot like William Saletan - which is a decidedly dubious place for an anti-racist to be.....,

DeAngelo Starnes said...

On another Chavez note, the corporate media focused on his requesting the people to allow him a chance to remain president beyond the term limits Venezualan law imposes. But they didn't talk about how he wanted to shorten the work week or restore property laws. You rarely hear about how he has offered to cut the price of oil by the barrel in half. I guess he was crazy, or trying to make Bush look bad, when he offered to help the drowning people in New Orleans. (For that matter I guess Castro's an asshole too for offering medical support).

Now what has our government offered in the New Orleans recovery effort? Money to would-be developers and Blackwater.

Is that some bullshit or what?

And don't get hung up on, or distracted by, the term "socialist." There are threads of socialism fundamental to our infrastructure. How would you like to pay for the trash man to pick up your trash? Firemen to rescue your burning home? Police to come to your house when someone breaks in it? Scratching the surface on socialized services but your tax dollars gotta derive some benefit outside of fighting terrorists in Iraq.


DeAngelo Starnes said...

cnulan, your body of work on this blog has been ad hominem.

Like I said, you have some valid points. But tone down the rhetoric, bruh, so we can appreciate it.

That's all.

No harm intended. And none taken from you.

Michael Fisher said...

"Is there another nation on earth that has provided so many black people with so much education and upward class mobility as this bastion of white supremacy, the United States?"

The problem is, David, that you are thinking locally instead of globally. White folks don't.

The United States as well as Europe is akin to the Master's Big House. By definition the Negroes that were allowed to stay in the Plantation Big House got to eat better food, wear the Master's cast of or even his original clothes, and some of the Mandigos even got to fuck the Master's wife or daughter.

So, them Negroes might've lived in the Big House, while the Scotch-Irish overseer of the plantation Negroes down in the fields might have lived in a modest shack, and things looked real confusing.

But in the end it's a question of the power relationships. That is, who controls the resources? And, more importantly who controls the Whip? Planet-wide, that is?

By the way. Power relationships. That is, partly, why I was so angry with you about what you did to Prof. Griff and P.E.

Griff is a Victim. Griff ain't got an ounce of power. He doesn't even have enough money to feed his family, and he sure didn't have any then. If you had gone to the media with a story about some German white guy mouthing off, a guy who was and had proven to be a Victimizer, then ok. But some powerless Negro who has been a victim and whose parents and grand parents have been victims and whose children are victims?

Thus what's of import here is always look at the power relationship.

Why can't Mills get a movie green lighted and some schmuck who has been in the filmed entertainment industry for half of Mills' time can?

Why doesn't Simon get a pat on the had from Mills instead of the other way around?

Why is it that white folks have more money, collectively, to spend om filmed entertainment than all of the non-white people on the planet combined?

It's about power relationships.

Undercover Black Man said...

The U.S. has to let a few through the gates if it doesn't want to see perpetual riots, car bombs, and unrest.

A few? DeAnge, there are more than 4 million black Americans with a bachelor's degree or higher. There are more than a million with master's degrees. That's extraordinary for a class of people who had been enslaved, discriminated against by law, ignored or scorned by the media, and pretty much relegated by race to second-class status until the '60s.

Face it, DeAngelo, we are America. Its DNA is mixed up with ours... ours with its. Our story is America's story. America's story is our story. Even the fucked-up parts... all the blood in the mud... it brought us to here and now: a time and place where you child can truly fulfill his human potential and become whatever he works toward being.

Undercover Black Man said...

Nulan wrote: "Not that it matters how I put it, Mills is not going to answer..."

Dude, after a steady stream of personal insults and your insistence that you would only engage me intellectually under the strictures of some silly-ass formal debate, here you come a-knockin'.

Your lips say "No no no," Craig... but your eyes say "Yes."

I knew you wanted some of this good dick.

So sit tight. I'll break you off something nice in a separate post.

cnulan said...

cnulan, your body of work on this blog has been ad hominem.

I don't have a "body of work" on this blog, and I hope you'll excuse me for not taking at all kindly to having been the subject of at least 5 ad hominem posts by Mills that I can casually recollect in the past two months. If you're referring to the fact that he called me a "cat" and I responded by calling him a "dog" or "poodle" to be specific - that was mere irony and I thought fairly trivially transparent on the face of it. Surely that wasn't lost on you?

If I come across as unduly hostile toward someone who has serially and unilaterally taken me to task for disagreeing with him, while he himself concurrently perpetrates some genuinely racist agitprop, so mode it be.

Undercover black racialists have been getting away with murder in the mainstream media and the only consequences they face consist of public humiliation when they're rigorously held to account for their demonstrably racist views.

Mills has unquestionably expressed the view that IQ is heritable and that Black folks are deficient. I'd like to know exactly how he came to hold that pseudo-scientific and anti-Black point of view and why he continues to perpetrate it despite mountains of indisputable evidence to the contrary?

How does a purported Black man internalize and proliferate something so conspicuously false and obviously anti-Black?

cnulan said...

I knew you wanted some of this good dick.

do all your jibes tend to the homoerotic David?

DeAngelo Starnes said...

cnulan, in my younger days, I'd engage, but I just don't have the energy anymore, bruh. My point was that you have valid points but they get lost in the rhetorical hostility. That's all. I assume you're an adult, and until George Bush or Dick Cheney, whisks us to Guatanamo, you have the freedom to post whatever. At least you're not a fence-straddler, which I respect. So let's keep it moving. This shit is too much fun to get bogged down in-fighting. "That's what the Man wants us to do."

Dave, I think I made the point that the fact we are where we are is a testament to our collective strength. Cuz I'd be interested to see where any other group would be after going through all the shit we've been through.

The people commonly referred to as Indians who don't speak Spanish have been broken. The ones who have the same resolve now pimp the casinos.

My son will fulfill his potential not because of society but because me and his mother teach him about the land-mines. Just like my parents and pseudo-parents did me. And as much as I may have benefitted from benevolence, I've been victimized, too. More victimized than benefitted. My perserverance is a strength to my family than it is to white benevolence. Depending on that will land you in jail.


DeAngelo Starnes said...

fisher, great point about power relationships. Because that's the root of white supremacy.

Ironically, that's why counter-racists and Black nationalists keep winning the white supremacy argument. We inevitably keep coming back to the power relationship. And that's some shit that can't be euphemistically explained away.


Undercover Black Man said...

Fisher wrote: "If you had gone to the media with a story about some German white guy mouthing off, a guy who was and had proven to be a Victimizer, then ok."

I've exposed white people's bullshit as well. In the '80s, I shined a light on Gary Gallo, a legal-clinic entreprenuer turned white nationalist "fascist" organizer.

If you haven't read about my online do-si-do with racialist blogger Lawrence Auster and right-wing streetfighter David Horowitz, I point you to this blog's archives.

And since you seem to want me to defend myself, I wrote an essay in the Washington Post about the involvement of Jews in the slave trade (a strange consequence of my interaction with Griff, actually) that got me described as a "fellow traveller" of anti-Semites by a Weisenthal Center propagandist.

Now, I reject your premise that black people -- or Griff as a black person -- are powerless. The power to pick up a brick and bust somebody in the head is all the power it takes for racialism and irrational hatred to be dangerous things.

Powerless, huh? Did you ever see PE onstage in the late '80s? Did you see Griff leading crowds in call and response? Griff was put forth as a leader, a philosopher/warrior. And after the shit went down, he got a solo recording deal with Luther Campbell plus an active side career as a college lecturer. (I shared the stage with him at Howard.)

He was a grown man, the things he said to me were things he believed, and I've never doubted for a second the right action of presenting that interview to the world. (It was a Jewish cat -- P.E. publicist Bill Adler -- who tried his damnedest to convince me not to publish it. So whose interest was Bill Adler serving? Black people's?)

Michael Fisher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael Fisher said...

Bill Adler (who by the way is an extremly pleasant individual who had hired Carmen Ashurst as his assistant and thus brought her in to Rush) was serving the interests Rick Rubin, of Rush Arist Management, (at the time the day-to-day was run by Lyor Cohen whom Rick hated) as well as Norby Walters Associates and P.E. agent Cara Lewis. All of whom are Jewish, by the way.

Public Enemy thus had a Jewish manager, a Jewish publicist, were signed to a Jewish-founded and owned label (Def Jam) had been signed to that label by the Jewish owner and record producer of that label (Rick Rubin) had a Jewish accountant (Burt Padell), a Jewish Publicist (Bill Adler), a Jewish booking agent (Cara Lewis) a white Europan booking agent in the UK (Paul Boswell), were distributed by a record company run by a Jewish record executive, Walter Yetnikoff, their legal representation was with a Jewish firm, Grubman, Indursky and Schindler (as well as later by Lisa Davis - who is black). Even their travel agent was white and Jewish, Nick Gold of Entertainment Travel.

You call that powerful?

Chuck D and the whole P.E. crew including Flavor and all of the S1Ws (but, ironically not Griff as much) are my personal friends. And I love 'em to death. But truth is truth.

I venture to claim that the only time during that time until they left Def Jam the group was ever able to move absolutely independently without any white executive involvement on any level whatsoever was when my
company (wholly black-owned-and-run and founded by moi) worked with them and they made extremly good chucks of change.

But actual power beyond being great propagandists? Naw.

Don't believe the hype.

As to powerlessness. I didn't say black folk as a whole don't have any power. If that were so, White Supremacy would still exist on the archaic chattel slavery level instead of the highly defined deceptive level it had to be eveolved to today in response to our resistance. But Griff himself, he had no power. The fact that he had to sign with Luke Campbell to get his records out speaks volumes. And if you know Luke like I do (a little) , you know Griff got no money outta those deals.

So. Beating up on Griff was not cool.

But more importantly it allowed the even more reactionary white record execs, who classify themselves as Jews, to rally the around Jerry Heller's clarion call (which folks like Mo Ostin initially opposed) to promote Gangsta Hip Hop to the exclusion of so-called "anti-semite" consciuos groups such as P.E., X-Clan, PRT, and even BDP/KRS-1 (who, incidentally were also signed to a white south african founded and run label - Jive and had a white and Jewish attorney/manager Jay Kraemer.)

Thus, by the way, you made history, baby. You helped in a major way provide the opportunity for these reactionary elements in the entertainment business to create the political climate that made the move to not only the cut-off of cinscious Hip Hop, but the promotion of Gangsta as we know it today possible.

That interview and that "scandal" was used and pushed like crazy inside the top white and Jewish executive suites. Thus Jerry Heller won the day. The rest is history.

Michael Fisher said...


"Lawrence Auster and right-wing streetfighter David Horowitz..."

Yes, I read the threads. I read a lot of your stuff lately. However, not to take away you glory, David. Auster and David Horrorjoke (witz means joke both in German and Yiddish) are easy targets.

I've been eating dumb motherfuckers like them for lunch since the mid-70s.

Now going after the intelligent, highly deceptive white folks who smile in your face - backstabbers - that's a whole other thing.

memomachine said...


@ DeAngelo Starnes

Or the esteemed Senator from Idaho - Larry Craig - who claims not be gay but is busy playing with, and fantasizing about, a dude's dick and balls.

Ok I call bullshit on this one.

**Prove it**

You made an assertion in your comment and now I want you to provide proof that Larry Craig is gay and thinks about men's balls all day long.

Lots of allegations out there. Not much proof. As for those individuals who have come forth to claim relationships with Larry Craig. The only problem is that I haven't seen anything to show that those allegations are credible.

So you must have some access to information that nobody else has.

memomachine said...


@ DeAngelo Starnes

Affirmative action grew out of civil rights laws. But one must stop to ask the question: why do nonwhite people need laws to force the dominant culture to allow them equal opportunities for education, jobs, and housing?

And yet again your examples fail because they do not apply to Asians.

Why not?

Less whining.


I'm going to abandon any further participation in this specific discussion because what I'm reading is just complete and utter bullshit.

I was born extremely poor in South Korea? How fucking poor? I worked as a 5 year old child in a fucking rice paddy that's how fucking poor. I got lucky, got adopted and came to America.

Now I'm 43, semi-retired and making $85k a year mostly goofing off.

Is the fucking white man oppressing my ass?

Seriously. This whole emphasis on white people this or white people that is probably one of the worst aspects of modern black life.

I better stop before I go way too far. But IMO success and failure is an individual thing. You're a success? Congrats! You're a failure? Work harder.

That's pretty much it.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ It's getting hot in here, y'all...

Thordaddy said...


You need come forward with your basic assumptions underlying your white supremacist theory. Is your racial theory based in the biological sciences or is your theory merely a personal construct... Evidence of your ability to theorize?

I would say that you seeing white supremacy in America is akin to me seeing white walls in a nut house.

You seem shocked that non-whites are not in a position of dominance in a white country and that those that highlight this angst of yours suddenly become white supremacists if they make such mention of obvious realities?

Give us some substance for your white supremacist theory.

Dougfp said...

^ "Lots of allegations out there. Not much proof.."

Dang, Memo, don't Koreans have gaydar?

Curious Bystander said...

Interesting discussion. Let’s say we take for granted that there is an organized, comprehensive global system of white supremacy,

(1)Isn’t it necessary to challenge it clandestinely rather than loudly and bombastically? The White supremacists are shrewd enough to employ mass deception to lull non-whites into complacency and undercut a mass revolution by parceling out legal rights, as well as economic and social perks piecemeal. Why do we want them to see “us” coming? Don’t we want people like Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele, Walter Williams, and Clarence Thomas lulling them into complacency and getting closer to the reins of white power the same way that liberal whites (especially those who call themselves Jews) have infiltrated and, sometimes, usurped the leadership of the civil rights movement in the U.S.?

(2)To what extent can other racial/ethnic minorities (in the U.S. and Europe) partner with Africans and African-Americans in the fight against white hegemony? Can blacks work with the Chinese, Japanese, Arabs, Latinos, Jews?, etc. to promote a universal goal of dismantling white supremacy? Once the system of white supremacy is toppled, will it create a vacuum that other groups--who may seek to define themselves in opposition to blackness--will seek to fill? Do we risk ushering in a global system of Asian supremacy, or Arab supremacy?

(3)Following up on the third question, why would the Chinese, for example, have any interest in changing the rules of the game now? Especially given that, in the long run, they will probably end up beating “whitey” at his own game. If you had to guess, which nation would you guess had the best shot at succeeding the U.S. as the preeminent economic and military superpower in the world in the next 100 years?

(4)Is it possible to unmake the system of white supremacy without taking military action? What revolution proceeded without blood shed? If the leaders of the system of white supremacy ever threw down the gauntlet and said, “If you want the reins of power, you’ll have to come pry them from our hands,” is it possible to devise a military plan that will win? They have armies, smart bombs, jets, submarines, and nukes. What, are we going to do, disarm them with our theoretical acumen? Do we have military strategists who can meet the challenge?

(5)Given that whites have been so successful at devising, implementing, and sustaining a system of supremacy and, at each turn, come up with ever more effective strategies by which to perpetuate this system, and have a genius for making war and creating lethal tools of war, and can be ruthless in the defense of their self-interests, what are the odds of a campaign against white hegemony succeeding?

(6)Non-sequitur: Why in the hell does everyone take shots at the Jews?

Undercover Black Man said...

Thordaddy and Curious Bystander, thanks for commenting. Haven't heard from you fellows in a while.

Unlike me at the moment, DeAngelo has a job in the real world. I'm sure he'll be slapping the puck back at y'all when he gets some free time.

Michael Fisher said...

memomachine said...

"I got lucky, got adopted and came to America.

If that indeed is the case, you are what white folks call a yellow house pet.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Fisher, Fisher, Fisher... gotdamn, dude...

Dougfp said...

^ "If that indeed is the case, you are what white folks call a yellow house pet."

Yeah, Fisher, but I'll bet he knew the earth revolved around the sun before it came up on "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?"

You on the other hand...

Michael Fisher said...


"^ Fisher, Fisher, Fisher... gotdamn, dude..."

Truth hurts, but it is true nonetheless.

Nice White Ladies And Africa As Petsmart

DeAngelo Starnes said...

Dave, thanks for having my back. That plantation has me a little spent right now.

So thordaddy, where I might ordinarily engage by trying not to repeat myself, I'll refer to previous posts. Be happy to refer you to reading materials, as well. Statiscal studies and reports forming opinon, too numerous to list. Your question is very simplistic and requires a very long answer. I think the purpose of Dave and my dialogue is to examine specific issues. We shade our answers with opposing assumptions without necessarily concluding one way or the other.

curiousbystander, re: point one of your post, I got admonished in private by a friend of mine for this public discussion. I have mixed feelings about that. On one hand, I think an open discussion is helpful, but then you can find yourself a target otherwise. I have to give that one some more thought.

Lotta good questions listed in point 2. Nonwhite group coalition is absolutely necessary in dismantling the system of white supremacy. However, the objective must have balance and justice as its goals. With that in mind, there won't be supremacy of any sort by any group. Even to the extgent there may still exist tribal disputes, the notion of group supremacy would have to be dismantled.

I don't have an opinion re: point 3.

Points 4 and 5 actually previews my next question. I might steal your articulation of it if I decide to go that route.

I don't have an opinion on point 6.

For stupid muthafuckas like memomachine and dougfp, don't expect a response to some childish shit. I'm only dealing with constructive discussion for constructive purposes.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Yo, DeAngelo. It's all cool. Handle yo business! ;^D

What did Dougfp say to piss you off? He didn't address your arguments at all.

DeAngelo Starnes said...

Dave, you may be right re: dougfp. It just looked like he was more into jokes than offering contributions to discourse.

I'm probably a little fried from being on the frontlines helping dumb muthafuckas the last two days. I should be a'ight tomorrow. Working on two issues for the next question. Trying to decide between them.

Undercover Black Man said...

Take your time, DeAngelo. I need to break something off for Craig Nulan anyway...

cnulan said...

Take your time, DeAngelo. I need to break something off for Craig Nulan anyway...

as the overhyped brokeback breakoff lumbers into it's 72 hour, David Mill's gargantuan vanity propels his futile struggle to mount a defense of the indefensible against an implacable and invincible foe.

Gawd I LOVE IT when a pompous nuccas alligator mouth publicly overloads his hummingbird backside!

Dougfp said...

Thanks for taking me off the hit list, DeAngelo. The only time on this blog I've ever commented on something you said, I believe I agreed with you. Yeah, I made a few jokes about Memomachine thinking Craig is straight and Fisher's "yellow house pet" slur, but that doesn't mean I haven't enjoyed the back and forth between you and Dave. As a white person I thought it best to stay out of the main conversation and just hear what you guys had to say. If jumping in to make a quick joke makes me a "stupid muthafucka" in your book, I guess I'll have to live with it.

Undercover Black Man said...

Nulan... go to your calm place. I'll get at you when I'm at you.

But first, I have to post about the Don Rickles documentary on HBO...

Michael Fisher said...

"Fisher's 'yellow house pet' slur"

How's that my slur?

Dougfp said...

^ Uh, because you said it several comments above?

Or are there two Michael Fishers on this thread?

DeAngelo Starnes said...

dougfp, I was a little edgy yesterday, bruh. It's all good.

Dougfp said...

^ Fair enough. I've had those days myself.

Michael Fisher said...

"^ Uh, because you said it several comments above?"

Nope, I reported what Far Eastern Asian (particularly Korean) adoptees say what essentially the attitudes of their "parents" are. Thus the link which I provided. Here's another

Thordaddy said...


I understand that within your circles the "system of white supremacy" is a no-brainer, but it seems like a hustle to me.

What's that the meat behind your theory...? Whites have power in America...? And deangelo doesn't like it?

Is your system of white supremacy rooted in white biology or your biology? You sure you ain't makin' this shit up?

DeAngelo Starnes said...

thordaddy, what the fuck is your fucking problem? "In my circles?" "My biology?"

First, of all, it ain't my system of white supremacy. It was here when I got here, and chances are it's gonna be here when I'm gone.

White supremacy isn't solely about white power, okay? It is about injustice and imbalance. White supremacy is racism and goes beyond David Duke.

You seem to want a simple answer to a simplistic question. This debate between Dave and myself, along with various contributors coming down one way or the other, deals with many topics on the same theme.

In response to your simplistic question, you seem to want me to come off as some crazy Khallid Muhammed muthafucka and say, "Cuz de white man controls everythang." But I'm not doing it.

If you don't believe there is such a system, stay in your little sheltered closet and continue to throw bricks. Otherwise, come out with some shit that disputes the point.

I don't feel like repeating myself. If you disagree with my posts, come with some facts.

But how about this, as a fact and one example, in the 2000presidential elections, the candidate George Bush knew it would be a tight race. So his right-hand person, Karl Rove, devised a scheme to steal votes. Or better yet, he decided to suppress votes. Guess whose voting rights he attacked? Black voters. In Florida, he utilized a company to peg Black voters as convicted felons, even when the vast majority weren't convicted felons.

Now, how'd he get away with that?

First, he used the Black as criminal stereotype to make it seem like it wasn't delibertat but an honest mistake. And folks thought there might be some validity to that because, after all, the majority of prisons have Black people in them.

Second, he played to, which Gore fell into, the "Blacks are always whining about having their civil rights taken away" stereotype. Which, to me, is akin to you saying your wife is always whining about you being out all the time and coming home drunk. To you, she's whining. But she's whining because your guilt is trying to suppress the truth. Because you have been going out all the time and coming home drunk.

And with those two stereotypes permeating the public, there was no outrage. Because after all, it can't be true that Blacks' votes were suppressed.

But according to the sources listed at the end of my post, it is true.

Now, let's flip the script and project into the future. If Obama uses similar techniques targeting lower class whites in a State holding sufficient electoral votes to swing an election and defeats Guliani for the presidency, there'd be riot. The results would be reversed and Obama would never become the president.

Why? Cause white people won't let that happen to other white people. They would use the courts and the media to right that wrong.

But when it came to Black votes, there wasn't a peep about it in the papers or on television.

A single journalist, Greg Palast, uncovered the scheme and broadcast that report in England. It wasn't picked up over here. And even with the story floating out there, no one has done anything about it.

And we're talking about how Black people were shut out of the process of choosing the leader of this country.

White supremacy equals white power over nonwhite powerlessnes.

Like I said before, if Obama did that shit, white power wouldn't allow him to get away with it.

So you say, well that was a play between two white men. So how does that serve your point?

Because the way this society is supposed to be constructed, each registered voter is supposed to exercise his/her individual power at the ballot box when it comes to choosing representatives of our collective will in government.

When nonwhites, in this case African Americans, have that power taken away with impunity, it serves the point that white supremacy ruled the day - as it does, at will, everyday.

Sources: "Best Money Democracy Buy" and "Armed Madhouse" by Greg Palast. His book is supported by first-hand, as opposed to second-hand, anecdotal, or opinion-based, evidence.

And that's just one example, and you see how long this post is without me going into as much detail as I could.

You got meat to dispute there's a system of white supremacy? Bring it. And pack a lunch.

DeAngelo Starnes said...

Yo Fisher, I read that Nice White Ladies and Africa as Petsmart article. Very well-written. That was a helluva perspective and a better come-back than I could have made against a self-hating ignoramus who shall remain unnamed.