Mr. Kasoff has asked me to publish his response as prominently as my original post. And I am happy to do so. Here it is:
NICK KASOFF: Hi ... I’m Nick Kasoff, the webmaster of The Thug Report. Thanks for the nice write up. And kudos for your excellent research on my other activities. However, there are a few things that need correction here:
1. I am not, and have never been, affiliated with any of the websites you name here, nor do I contribute to them in any way.
2. It’s not hard to see that I have nothing to do with these sites - I do not, and have never, done anything anonymously on the internet. My domains are registered in my own name, and my blog posts are also done with my real name. Heck, I’m even listed in the phone book. Why would I do a bunch of anonymous blogs, then expose myself to heat by putting my name on The Thug Report? Anonymous domain registration is only twenty bucks a year, people ...
3. While we appreciate anyone who links to our site, that does not imply that we endorse their views. We receive traffic from all sorts of sites, from white supremacist to hip hop.
While you have obviously concluded the contrary, I actually like black people. I live in a racially diverse area, not because I can’t afford one of those all white enclaves in the ‘burbs, but because I prefer the urban environment. I find that the vast majority of black people are friendly, hard working, and just generally decent folks.
If you read the “About the Thug Report” page on the site, you’ll see my motive for doing this is NOT to defame black people, but to help, in my small way, to drive us toward a solution to urban crime. While I don’t have the solution, I feel that identifying the problem is the first step to finding it.
Our cities and inner ring suburbs are America’s future. They are the only place you can live without spending huge amounts of time and money driving. They are racially and economically diverse, have a housing stock of quality that today’s builder’s can’t match, and a sense of community that the gated neighborhoods of suburbia can never create. I am outraged that a tiny group of lawless people have succeeded in making large swaths of urban America uninhabitable. The Thug Report is my contribution toward reversing that trend.
I understand that many of you may disagree with the tactic. But at least now, you understand the motive is as far from racial animus as one can get.
Nick Kasoff
The Thug Report
August 1, 2008 7:26 AM
51 comments:
Hmm.
I'm having a hard time believing that the Thug Report is not motivated by racial animus. What is driving the use of the "My name Tay"-style ebonics on the site?
And I don't think that we as a nation are unaware of urban crime.
I'm really glad Mr. Kasoff finds most black people friendly and hardworking -- some of my best friends are white, too! -- but does he have no idea that his site might lend ammunition to some who are not quite as enlightened?
That said, like I posted before, black-on-black crime is a huge problem. Perhaps I would believe Mr. Kasoff a bit more if, in addition to holding out people to ridicule, he might offer some space for SOME solutions. People can do what they want on their own websites, of course. But I feel like he's expecting applause for the site or something, and expressing genuine surprise that someone might find it racially troubling, and that's hard to swallow.
Dam UBM...First you pulled off your own MBM....now you've notched a MWM...(or have u?)CHEERS.
Christina,
What model Bullsh!t detector are you using these days? Seems pretty accurate. Mine has been so damaged from redlining that I could use a new model...Hope it's digital.
TWIMC,
What are the stats for crimes committed by people of low income... or low intelligience and/or poorly educated?
Why deny that black people have such a high crime rate? Of course they do.
And why can't we, white people, talk about it? Fuck you. Of course we can.
If you don't like it, don't go. OR...stop being a thug, so that you won't be personally offended.
Unless it's just in your nature...
"And I don't think that we as a nation are unaware of urban crime."
Fact, the MSM doesn't pick up black crime. There is so much of it, they simply can't keep up and still cover all of the other stories.
Being that it's such an obvious problem, there need to be web sites that track the trend.
Saying what about poor whites, isn't valid because the rates aren't even nearly the same.
Also, the crimes aren't as stupid, or as typical and routine.
I love it when people post inane crap as Anonymous. That way they can air their racist thoughts without being rightfully shamed.
Ya gotta love the "internets."
Also shows the quality of individual drawn to Nick Kasoff's Thug Report, notwithstanding his disingenuous disclaimer.
Keep 'em coming, anonymice!
Gotta love those anonymous comments--they're never surprising.
Back to Kasoff; as far as I'm concerned, a man that's capable and willing to write a blog like that is capable of pretty much anything.
The thug report makes my day, I check it each morning to get my daily laugh. I have seen this behavior first hand that Nick writes about in his posts, and agree 101% with the posts. Most show the criminal to be too stupid to even be taken as as a human being. Keep up the god work Nick !!
Interesting. Mr. Kasoff says that the motive for creating his site was "as far from racial animus as you can get." However, the site's defenders seem to be certainly be trafficking in racial animus.
I don't think UBM said that you (general you) can't talk about black crime, and I know that I'm not. But I think it's a hard sell to say that you're not being driven by racial animus. I look at those same pictures and think of ruined lives and ruined neighborhoods, and it makes me unspeakably sad. But at least one poster says here that those same images give him a "laugh."
Mr. Kasoff, if the intent of the site is to make vibrant neighborhoods better for all the friendly, hardworking, decent black folks that you know, and not merely to mock them, I think that your efforts are not succeeding as you may wish. I don't know you, so I'll take you at your word that you are sincere, and I'll sincerely ask why you are using racist code language to get across a point that you say is not intended to be racist.
I just felt inspired to post this: Hateful Things?. It's an exhibit sponsored by the Jim Crow Museum. The first three thumbnails caught my eye.
If I were to refer to my self as the "Undercover White Man", I would immediately be pegged as a racist. Whether you choose to believe the facts or not, blacks to commit more crime! If poverty is the cause, then the fact that there are more Caucasians below the poverty level than blacks, should also a proportionately larger caucasian crime rate as well.
Thanks UBM for this investigation. Guess this is why you get paid to write words.
Oh, man, I want to be the one to explain the "undercover black man" joke! Please? Pleeeeeze?
All right, I guess I can't, it's not my blog. :-) Dangit.
Anonymous, when you know why this blog has the name Undercover Black Man, you're going to realize that your comment doesn't make a lick of sense in context. And you would NOT be "pegged as racist."
Why do the anonymous people keep arguing a point that no one else is disputing? Who has said that black people don't commit crimes? Who is more often the victims of such crime? Is that website motivated by hand-wringing concern over the plight of the black male?
Blah, blah, blah, some of my best friends are black, blah, blah. He doth protest too much me thinks.
David,
If you ask someone if they think you have a drinking problem, you have a drinking problem. If you feel you must defend your stand on racial matters, you are probably a racist. Christina is right, why would he make fun of ebonics?
I don't comment often, but I do use my name or "Chris R. Cosby", which leads you to my real name. Many of the people responding to this post, and most others, display a name or nickname, but their link leads nowhere. Isn't that the same as 'anonymous'?
For decades (since the 50's), I thought black music was Louie Armstrong, Count Basie, Eubie Blake, Motown, Nat King Cole, Snoop and now Ludicrous. You have shown me I had barely scratched the surface. I do not particularly like every bit of it, but I appreciate every bit of it.
Oh, man, I want to be the one to explain the "undercover black man" joke! Please? Pleeeeeze?
christina, I'm glad you didn't waste your breath. That anonymous doesn't get it is quite pathetic. The moniker isn't exactly a shibboleth. Anyone with two good brain cells should understand it. It needn't be that complicated. *sigh*
If I were to refer to my self as the "Undercover White Man", I would immediately be pegged as a racist.
If you happen to be hiding your identity under white bed sheets and a pointy hood...yeah, ya would.
1. I didn't say that "some of my best friends are black." You've tried to turn an honest observation into a racial stereotype by misquoting.
2. People are posting as anonymous because they don't want to be subjected to the public harassment to which I've been, through publication of my photograph and irrelevant personal details. Based on your conduct here, that is a fair concern.
3. Defending yourself against a charge of racism means you're a racist? So I guess you'd all agree that Louis Farrakhan is an anti-Semite, and that Rev. Wright is a white hating bigot?
4. If you don't think that two guys getting busted in a shooting who are both named "Tay" is funny, you have no sense of humor. If two white guys in Arkansas held up a liquor store, and they were both named Bubba, that also would be funny. And if a gang of white half-wits drove around a trailer park in beat up hoopdies, dealing drugs and engaging in idiotic petty crimes, with predictably disasterous results and regular incarceration, that also would be funny. In fact, it would be the popular Canadian television program, Trailer Park Boys.
5. You've made this entire conversation about The Thug Report, and have dodged the original issue I raised, your falsely pegging me as the author of a series of websites with which I have no affiliation or relationship whatsoever. My website is composed exclusively of links to news stories on reliable mainstream media websites. You, on the other hand, have invented and put out a false story, slandered me in doing so, and aside from your generously posting my response, have in no way retracted or backed off from your scurrilous accusation. And you have the audacity to accuse ME of perpetrating lies?
Fuck you Nick Kasoff. Corporate on honky crime is more rampant and damaging than the crap you pretend to pull the drapes on. Devote some energy revealing the damage the George W. Bush and Dick Cheney has done to the average and below average honky if you want fair and balanced coverage of your bullshit.
"I didn't say that "some of my best friends are black." You've tried to turn an honest observation into a racial stereotype by misquoting."
So you don't have any friends who are black?
I kid, of course. I don't know who your friends are. But please show me where I *quoted* you as saying "some of my best friends are black." You're actually quoting *me.* I used your words, that most black people are friendly and hardworking.
I thought my turn of phrase was a funny use of a racial stereotype (kinda like the Thug Report itself, with the "my name Tay" thing?) I guess neither one of us have good senses of humor.
I think Mr. Kasoff believes what he is saying.
But that being so - what his website demonstrates is the level of oblivion, or lack of conscious awareness with regard to what is "acceptable" racist thought in white America.
If you say you're just identifying bad guys does that make racist statements against a group okay?
Apparently, for a lot of people, but it doesn't mean they don't like black people.
My website is composed exclusively of links to news stories on reliable mainstream media websites.
Wrong, Nick. You also link to the "G*d D@mn America blog"... one of the Yacub 7 Ali/Ghetto Bragging Rights sites.
They link to you; you link to one of them. Coincidence?
So far as I know, I do NOT link to GD America, or any of those other blogs. If I have unwittingly linked to a story associated with that site, please let me know and I'll probably remove it. I did do a text search on the html code for my page, and didn't find anything.
quickychick - in answer to your question, "If you say you're just identifying bad guys does that make racist statements against a group okay?" ... unequivocally no. I don't believe that my site does such a thing. Even the name of the site specifically and intentionally states that the site is about thugs, not about blacks in general.
PS - In direct answer to your question, "They link to you; you link to one of them. Coincidence?" Even if it were the case that we linked to each other, it wouldn't mean we're the same person. There are loads of bloggers who blogroll each other - it's a commonly accepted way of building traffic to your site. It doesn't mean you're the same person, or even that you completely endorse each other's views.
Nick: The link is there just as I spelled it... with the asterisk and the @ symbol.
Why'd you link to it?
Found it, nuked it, it won't be back. I wasn't finding it because I was searching for it without the * and @. I'm not sure why it was there in the first place ... if it had been a mutual support thing, it would have been listed under "friends" in the 3rd column.
The facts are ugly about crime - it is mainly black.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/ageracesex.htm
Look at the link - get your head around what the numbers mean. They mean further destruction of our freedoms. They mean old ladies dying in their un Air Conditioned house with their windows nailed shut. They mean kids shot for not looking at someone right.
Wake up people.
And to the first poster who said black on black crime is a huge problem - is black on white crime OK?
Why is Kasoff a racist for printing the truth of what is going on around him.
This sucks! I kinda liked Thugreport, but thought it was quite mean. I hoped that it was a black individual, trying to speak to the black people, but I guess it's just another white guy talking from the high white horse of white privelege.
Bummer! Buddy, you're white and you concentrate on Black crime. You make fun of thier very names, as though even thier parents are stupid fools.
Nick,y'know, you're the kinda guy who thinks Nick Kasoff is such a NORMAL name, that it's not worth sharing, but we have to find out the hard way that you're a white guy.
%%*& you, guy. There isn't a website big enough to list the crimes of 'your people', which I guess is why you're so lazy about documenting it. If you had said you were white, that would be one thing. The fact is white people can't even see when what they do is a crime.
America can't even give reparations to documented slave families.
Talk about redlining bullsh!*. Have fun overseeing the N!ggaz, Hick!
From the US Department of Justice:
http://ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvusst.htm
Go to the "Victims and Offenders" and download the pdf document for 2005. Then go to table 42. It PLAINLY states:
"Type of crime and race of victim" for "Rape/sexual assault" : White only - Number of single-offender victimizations - 111,490- Percieved Race of Offender - Black - 33.6%."
33.6% of 111,490 is 37,460.
Here are the numbers for black victims of rape and sexual assault:
"Type of crime and race of victim for "Rape/sexual assault" : Black only - Number of single-offender victimizations - 36,620- Percieved Race of Offender - White - 0.0% *."
and if you follow the little asterix to the bottom of the page for the footnote, it says very clearly:
"Estimate is based on about 10 or fewer sample cases."
So there you go, plain as day. According to the US Department of Justice, in the year 2005 alone black men raped at least 37,460 white women, and in the same year white men raped less than ten black women.
Therefore, statistically, over 100 white women are being raped every day by black men.
> I guess it's just another white guy
> talking from the high white horse
> of white privelege.
Sure, white privilege. My family came over here on boats in the late 19th century, lived in ghettos, and worked their way up. It was better than being a slave, yes. But not exactly what I'd call privilege.
> You make fun of thier very names,
> as though even thier parents are
> stupid fools.
Anyone who would name their kid Nigeana, Antwayne, Dirren, Mercedes, or Lexus, to name a few, IS a stupid fool.
> America can't even give
> reparations to documented
> slave families.
My family arrived here decades after slavery was abolished. You want to tax me to give money to people whose great great grandparents were slaves. Sounds fair to me.
Sure, white privilege. My family came over here on boats in the late 19th century, lived in ghettos, and worked their way up. It was better than being a slave, yes. But not exactly what I'd call privilege.
This type of white whine always misses the point and trivializes the notion of "white privilege." I love Robert Jensen not only because he's empathetic and strives to be human, but also because he gets it:
"Some white people have had it easier than me, probably because they came from wealthy families that gave them even more privilege. Some white people have had it tougher than me because they came from poorer families. White women face discrimination I will never know. But, in the end, white people all have drawn on white privilege somewhere in their lives.... White privilege is not something I get to decide whether or not I want to keep. Every time I walk into a store at the same time as a black man and the security guard follows him and leaves me alone to shop, I am benefiting from white privilege. There is not space here to list all the ways in which white privilege plays out in our daily lives, but it is clear that I will carry this privilege with me until the day white supremacy is erased from this society." Source.
Robert Jensen is a so-called professor who just spouts this BS to get laid with his hippie-chick groupies. I used to live in Austin and have met the guy many times and he is a clueless, arrogant asshole who most likely doesn't even believe the rubbish he craps out. OK, so what, we have "white privilege". Big deal. Did our "white privilege" force blacks (13% of the USA) to commit over 52% of all murders in our country? Did "white privilege" force black men to rape at least 37,460 white women in only one year?
As Kasoff is clearly not hiding his identity or his opinions, seems weird to fabricate such accusations. Maybe he also killed Jon-Benet or JFK??
Although it makes folks uncomfortable to discuss racial differences, it is a fact that blacks commit a vastly disproportionate amount of violent crime, yet never mentioned in the MSM.
(BTW, LOL @ the person bemoaning "black-on-black" crime, as if "black-on-nonblack" crime is insignificant.)
It's too bad there not as much outrage directed at the black crime problem as there is at this Kasoff-non-issue.
"anonymous," you're funny! And redundant. So your point is...?
That's a rhetorical question. (You do understand that's a figure of speech, right?) I don't care to know. Rote statistics aside, I'm aware of the crime problem and loads of other problems this country faces. But if you need to obfuscate these other problems with what seems to be a compulsive preoccupation with black criminality, knock yourself out.
Re: Keep up the god work Nick !!
Why bring "god" into the fray?
Re: OK, so what, we have "white privilege". Big deal.
Yeah, it is. But I bet you're too preoccupied to see it. *sigh*
I will be as redundant as I want to be as long as black men keep raping in numbers anywhere near the 37,460 white women they raped in only one year. This is a much larger problem than your whining about "white privilege".
what seems to be a compulsive preoccupation with black criminality
What's wrong with being pre-occupied with a legitimate threat to one's safety and well-being?
If the hundreds of thousands of annual victims of violent black thugs had been more compulsively pre-occupied with black criminality, perhaps they wouldn't be victims.
I will be as redundant as I want to be as long as black men keep raping in numbers anywhere near the 37,460 white women they raped in only one year.
As fervid/redundant as you are, I gather you must be quite sympathetic to the history and plight of Native Americans whose land and women were violated and population nearly annihilated by European colonizers, right?
Oh puh-leeeez. Sure, bad things were done to the Native Americans, but the reality of the cultures of most of the Native American tribes at the time of Colonialism was not like the current PC myth of peaceful peoples tied intimately to nature.
Most were the worst sort of barbarians in a constant state of war with other tribes, they tortured their victims in very imaginative ways, including of course the whites, men, woman and children, that they captured.
They had no more “right” to the land than did the pioneers. So enough of painting the spread of the white man on this continent as a historical cause for shame, it was a cause for progress in the most positive sense of the term.
> Rote statistics aside, I'm aware of
> the crime problem and loads of
> other problems this country faces.
The urban crime problem isn't rote statistics, it's an endless line of corpses, grieving families, and fatherless kids. It's a man gunned down in a busy Tucson intersection and nobody calling the cops. It's shots fired at the funeral home where friends and family are mourning a shooting victim. It's a St. Petersburg teen killing a beloved teacher in a robbery. And that's just HALF of the stories I posted TODAY.
It may be just "rote statistics" to you. It's a lot more than that to people in the real world. You view it as a "race issue." Other people view it as a "life and death" issue. You may be a well spoken, educated black person who is so far removed from this that it's just a political football, like reparations or affirmative action. Tell that to the woman standing over her grandson's corpse.
sympathetic to the history and plight of Native Americans whose land and women were violated and population nearly annihilated by European colonizers
I'm sympathetic.
What exactly does this have to do with the black violent crime rate in 2008?
You may be a well spoken, educated black person
Hah! He actually said "well spoken." You sure you don't also want to call him "articulate" or "cleanly?" I would've thought we whites had learned to stop using such terminology by now.
"Therefore, statistically, over 100 white women are being raped every day by black men."
I haven't looked at your statistics, but I'm going to take as given that they are exactly correct. (Even though "perceived race" is a tricky thing. There are Latinos who look "black," for instance.)
You know, it's interesting, but I take away from that a different thing -- not that it's a huge problem that black men rape white women at a higher rate than the reverse, but that RAPE is such a big problem. Because as a black woman, I'm not going to say "yippee, my attacker's black!" or "Wow, he's white, what a statistical anomaly!" if I'm getting raped.
This must be a guy thing, to think that this is an issue more important than the issue of rape itself. I don't think rape victims are really all that focused on the race of their attacker. It doesn't make it easier to deal with if 33 percent of the time it's a black guy, 66 percent of the time it's a guy of your racial background, or whatever.
And, I guess another way to look at that report is that black women and white women are getting raped in about the same numbers by black men (I'm going assuming that black men are the most common victimizers of black women) -- the numbers are 37,460 compared to 36,620; that's pretty close. And another thing I take away from it is that relative to our percentage in the population, it seems like black women are getting raped a lot. But I'd have to sit down with a calculator to work that out.
As for the problem of black-on-white crime, sure. Person-to-person crime is a travesty. I didn't delve deeply into the Thug Report but since Mr. Kasoff said he is focusing on urban crime in his disclaimer, I don't think it's a far stretch to say that most perpetrators of urban crime have "urban" victims. And urban seems to be another word for "black" in this circumstance. If his site was focused on black criminals who have white victims, I'd have had a different thing to say.
But to be honest, the real reason why I typed "black on black" is because my mind couldn't shake the image of a black woman, further down the page, with tears streaming down her face. (I don't know if it's there now, I don't need to give TR any extra traffic to check.) That image caught my attention and made me deeply sad. But if it caused me to suggest that I don't think it's a big deal if white people are victims of crime, that was a mistake. It's just that right in front of my face I was seeing someone I presume was a black victim.
You may be a well spoken, educated black person who is so far removed from this that it's just a political football, like reparations or affirmative action.
I hope you're not insinuating that I'm elitist, because you don't know me or my politics. And therein lies the rub. People like you think you know us better than we know ourselves.
I tell you, it really sucks when a white woman clutches when I stand a little too close for comfort; or, when I walk past a car and the white owner locks the automatic doors shut. And get this, I'm a female! Here's a tip: "You don't KNOW me. I have a JOB, and I don't want anything you have. And if I do, I'll buy it!" So, I empathize with all the black males who aren't out there thuggin' and basically doing the right thing. It's the bad apples who make it bad for the rest of us, that and crude generalizations.
Tell that to the woman standing over her grandson's corpse.
Being the victim of a senseless act of crime is a shame, it truly is. I'd bet many family members who've stood over the remains of a fallen soldier would agree.
And what does this too "have to do with the black violent crime rate in 2008?"
Perspective.
I'm done. And if that makes you feel like a winner then revel on! People like you get off on being the victor.
My apologies to UBM for feeding the trolls. :-(
And what does this too "have to do with the black violent crime rate in 2008?"
Perspective.
If you need to go back hundreds of years in order to find something that puts black criminality into perspective, then apparently you agree that the enormity of the black crime problem should not be downplayed, and is of historical significance.
"People like you get off on being the victor."
======
Well, that's better than being people like you, who get off on being loser victims who blame their self-inflicted problems on everyone else.
So there you go, plain as day. According to the US Department of Justice, in the year 2005 alone black men raped at least 37,460 white women, and in the same year white men raped less than ten black women.
I blogged about this bullshit at length last year. Those numbers are based on an ignorant misreading of the crime stats by Lawrence Auster.
He wrote this misinformation for FrontPageMagazine.com... and ended up getting banned, with FrontPage publisher David Horowitz acknowledging the faulty numbers.
Problem is, David Duke reproduced Auster's interracial rape article in toto on his blog -- bullshit data analysis in tact. Which is no doubt where my anonymous guest picked it up.
One of Auster's own blog readers -- a statistician -- looked at a decade's worth of interracial crime statistics. His conclusion, as I blogged in May 2007:
"[T]he interracial rape dichotomy is more like 36/8. That is, 36 white women a day sexually attacked by blacks; 8 black women a day sexually attacked by whites. ...
" '[W]e can estimate that each year, for every 100,000 white females, about 25 are raped by black men; for every 100,000 black females, about 16 are raped by white men.' "
So there is a disproportion. But it's not so grotesque a disproportion as Lawrence Auster supposed... and as David Duke followers wish to believe.
> I hope you're not insinuating that
> I'm elitist, because you don't know
> me or my politics.
All I know is what you've written here, and that is the only thing on which I comment.
> I tell you, it really sucks when a
> white woman clutches when I stand a
> little too close for comfort;
I clutch when ANYONE stands too close for comfort. I also know enough about crime statistics to realize that it's unlikely that a black female is going to rob or assault me.
> Being the victim of a senseless
> act of crime is a shame, it truly
> is. I'd bet many family members
> who've stood over the remains of
> a fallen soldier would agree.
There have been just over 4,000 killed in Iraq in more than five years of war. Between 16,000 and 17,000 Americans are murdered every year. Those who died in Iraq were volunteers. Those who were murdered in the United States, in most cases, were not. But hey, if those who are going crazy about "George Bush's criminal war in Iraq" expended proportional energy on urban crime, our cities would be crime free by now. So if all you Code Pink folks can spare a few minutes, I'm sure it would do a world of good.
> My apologies to UBM for feeding
> the trolls.
So UBM starts a conversation by making an unsolicited post containing personal information and false accusations about me, and his own readers keep it alive by turning the conversation to one about my own website ... but those who disagree with YOU are the trolls. Makes sense to me.
There have been just over 4,000 killed in Iraq in more than five years of war.
I love how for pro-war conservatives, Iraqi deaths don't count. Iraq Body Count shows it approaching 100,000, and that's a conservative estimate.
Those who died in Iraq were volunteers.
But of course they were! (lol)
I love how anti-war liberals ignore who (anti-American terrorists) has actually killed the vast majority of Iraqi civilians since 2003.
Even when those statistics are clearly available in the very same link.
=
REALITY,
R
Yeah, I'm beyond late with this comment but I can't help it:
"While you have obviously concluded the contrary, I actually like black people."
Woooow. He likes us! He really likes us! Silly me. I never knew that black people were a monolith that one could like or dislike en masse. Here I was choosing *individuals* I like based on their integrity, intelligence, compassion, humour, common interests... all that good stuff. And I still manage to like *individuals* of various races.
When will these people learn that every time they open their mouths to prove how earnest they are, they betray themselves and their narrow-mindedness even more??
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