Friday, March 14, 2008

‘I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright...’

Barack Obama, in a statement posted this afternoon at the Huffington Post, tries to thread the needle. He “strongly condemn[s]” the “inflammatory and appalling remarks” uttered by his longtime pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright... while defending the man as a community leader, a scholar and an ex-Marine (?).

This won’t end the controversy. Indeed, the Clinton campaign now has a license to confront Obama – legitimately – on his close ties to a man rooted in the resentful rhetoric of black nationalism and the radical-left doctrines of “liberation theology.”

And even if Hillary doesn’t go the “Sister Souljah” route, the Republicans surely will bang this gong from now till the end of time.

See what that played-out Mau Mau shit’ll get you? You can’t expect white folks in Sheboygan to comprehend the nuances of the black-nationalist critique of America.

For all the commenters who’ve complained that Obama hasn’t yet been “tested” in this campaign... well, he now has a No. 2 pencil in hand. The test has begun.

64 comments:

cnulan said...

See what that played-out Mau Mau shit’ll get you? You can’t expect white folks in Sheboygan to comprehend the nuances of the black-nationalist critique of America.

Clearly not with "responsible kneegrow" apologists running around legitimizing not-seeism rather than confronting it!

John B. said...

Well spoken, UBM.

Listening to some of these Afrocentrist types go on, the image that comes to mind is someone who eats a steady diet of cabbage and refried beans, then locks himself in a closet to hyperventilate his own farts.

SJ said...

This is going to get very interesting.

You have to admit though, for the most part what Wright said is true. The problem is the way he said it("God damn America!")

elle said...

true, sj, everything Rev. Wright said was true, it was just the tone. This fuss over Obama's connection to the Black nationalist church will blow over, much like the fuss over Michelle's "first time I'm proud to be American" speech. Case in point, the only people who really picked up this news is fox news, and judging by Nielson ratings fox news is no longer relevant, and the Daily Show, this story will blow over.

Malcolm said...

In a strange sort of triangulation, this might actually help Obama in the long run.

http://malcolmrant.blogspot.com/2008/03/triangulation.html

The fact that he has a crazy pastor can be overlooked by all of the other candidates who have their own crazy pastors; and it also will put a nail in the myth that Obama is a "secret Muslim".

odocoileus said...

actually it's the same problem as Ferraro's "he's only winning cause he's black" bullshit.

It's self esteem politics. Clinton and her allies don't want to face the fact that they're losing because they ran a shitty campaign with a shitty, inexperienced candidate. So it's got to be someone else's fault.

Wright, and his fellow travellers, including, let's face it, Obama, don't want to face the face that most the trauma that black America suffers is self-inflicted. Blaming whitey protects their self esteem.

Militant Islamists have the same problem. At some level they're aware that they could have wiped Israel off the map a long time ago if the Arab world wasn't so corrupt, so backwards, so generally unproductive. (Not that I'm anti Israel in any way. Obviously I don't favor the destruction of Israel.) But the Arabs have held a huge advantage in numbers and money and still have been beaten every time. Large scale cultural and political change is too risky and too painful. So much easier just to blame the Jews.

Or whitey. Or blacky. Or the imperialist running dogs.

If you want to be president of the US, you have to get the votes of a lot of white Americans. No way around it. If you really believe that a long term association with people who hold views like the Reverend Wright will do anything but hurt you with white voters, you're too fuckin stupid to be president, Harvard Law degree notwithstanding.

Bay Radical said...

I don't get it. Unless I'm missing something, dude didn't threaten anyone. He didn't say "white people are x,y, or z" he didn't say "Americans are x,y, or z". He criticized government policies. The right to do so is supposedly enshrined in our constitution right? He's a minister so his language is poetic and inspires strong feelings, but I don't get how criticizing US policy is automatically "nationalist" - even if one believes that nationalism is a problem.

odocoileus said...

How did Obama's backers miss all of this? It's been out there for years. Did they just back him without doing any background?

E Franklin Frazier had a term for the sort of bs Wright traffics in. He called it "Negroes and the World of Make Believe". If reality's too painful, indulge yourself in elaborate fantasies.

Now the Dems will be free to dump him and give Hillary the nod. I'm almost enough of a paranoid to say that the Clinton advisers who defected to the Obama camp were double agents.

Abysmally stupid, all around.

Anonymous said...

I've been reading this blog for quite some time. Generally, I enjoy the content.

Being bi-racial and a strong supporter of multiculturalism I cannot fathom how one could support one word that comes from the mouth of "Reverend" Wright. I also do not see how one can ignore his comments regarding Jews and Whites. Has it gotten to the point where we accept overt racism, as long as the messenger's skin color conforms to ours? According to the post I see here, apparently the answer to that question is yes.

I am slowly moving away from Obama. The unfortunate problem I face is there is no other candidate to support.

J.J.

memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ odocoileus

"How did Obama's backers miss all of this? It's been out there for years. Did they just back him without doing any background?"

They didn't miss anything. They knew about it from the very beginning because pastor Wright is Barack Obama's political advisor, regardless of whether or not he's officially on the campaign staff. In addition there are a number of articles written in 2007, Rolling Stone & Chicago Tribune, where the very close relationship is detailed. Frankly it sounds almost father-son.

IMO, and this is just my opinion, is that he now faces a few specific problems:

1. He set a gold standard when he stated that he had never heard his pastor of 20+ years say these things. Because now people are going to go through all of the available sermons and will try to identify if Barack attended either by analyzing the dvds or though available documentation of his movements.

If anybody can prove he was in he church when pastor Wright was giving one of these sermons then he's going to be established as a liar. And worse than that someone who deliberately lied to the voters.

And a bad memory excuse won't cut it.

2. The explanation Barack Obama gave on FoxNews was *extremely* parsed. He disavowed the sermons, but did not condemn them. He disagreed with the sermons, he says, but did not say that they were untrue. Also he stated he would've left the church if they had been "repeated". And that he didn't "hear" the sermons himself.

The problem is the parsing. Something that Christians are almost trained to analyze and reject. From this careful parsing we can tell that he did know about the sermons but hides behind his claim that he didn't hear them firsthand. He disavowed the sermons but did nothing about it.

Anybody who has attended church on a regular basis will see the flaws in this kind of parsing. This was not a good thing for Barack Obama.

3. The issues surrounded Rezco are coming back as Obama's campaign has now divulged that Rezco actually gave Obama $100k more than previously stated.

Not good.

4. The issue of earmarks given to his wife's employer at the same time his wife gets a $195k *raise*. Combine this with Obama's current stance on earmarks and his attacks on Hillary's failure to divulge her earmarks and I'm sure you can see the freight train coming.

5. A number of organizations that contributed money to Obama's campaign have gotten earmarks. Which makes the whole issue of earmarks and corruption involving Barack Obama a landmine waiting to detonate.

Probably by Hillary in the next debate.

...

Frankly the biggest problem is that Obama has known the pastor for 20+ years. There is no way, absolutely no way, anybody who is a member of a congregation for 20+ years could not know precisely the views of his pastor.

There is absolutely no way, and every churchgoer will know this, that a pastor could give an unusual sermon that won't get remarked upon and gossiped about throughout the congregation.

It's the statements made by Barack Obama and his campaign that people can compare to their own experiences in their own churches that are doing the most damage.

memomachine said...

Hmmmmm.

Sorry about this. Forgot to include this part:

"There is absolutely no way, and every churchgoer will know this, that a pastor could give an unusual sermon that won't get remarked upon and gossiped about throughout the congregation."

Which means either the sermons were unusual and it's extremely unlikely that Obama was not informed of them.

-or-

The sermons were normal for that church which means that it's impossible that Obama wasn't aware of his pastor's views.

...

I mentioned a long time ago about my reservations concerning Obama. Those reservations weren't that he' a bad man or anything like that. My reservations are due to the fact that the media's job is to hammer away at candidates.

Pound them like red hot iron on an anvil. Drive the impurities out of the iron and sledge the scale off. The old adage that the hotter the fire, the purer the metal I believe also applies to politics.

And the deference and kid glove treatment given by the media to Democrats does in my opinion severely hurt the Democratic party.

Politics is a brutal Darwinian process where only the very best, or the most lucky, can survive. But the liberal media skews this a great deal by hammering conservatives and Republicans. While I do think this is bad the result is that most Republican or conservative candidates are politically astute. They have to b because otherwise the liberal media will help destroy them.

On the other hand a lot of marginal characters an get elected as a Democrat because of the kid glove treatment by the liberal media.

Consider John Kerry. Had the media hammered him early on you'd have realized early on that he was not nearly as electable as he presented himself. You'd have found out that huge number of military veterans hated his guts with a passion.

*shrug* IMO it's only going to get worse.

Michael Fisher said...

"Being bi-racial..."

What the fcuk is "bi-racial"? Are you a Zebra or something?

Michael Fisher said...

David. Don't you know that John McCain, Bill O'Reilly, and Rev. Jeremiah Wright agree on who runs the country?

DeAngelo Starnes said...

Gonna comment on reactions with the limited hearing of the content that led to this latest controversy.

Very interesting comments.

I'd be interested how voters react to the spin outta both camps.

From what I heard, ain't nothing really for Obama to apologize for.

But if white people want to continue to find excuses for not voting for Obama, there's plenty out there to give their out.

The difference remains, is Obama's campaign putting out there information to besmirch Hillary?

Is Hillary's campaign volitionally putting racist subliminal messages out there for the straddling white voters in order to convert them?

I don't think the white kids that's supporting Obama are gonna get fooled by the hype. It's the old school, old school politics thinking white voters whose assholes are gonna get tight.

And the memos of the world - "shrug", they're lost anyway.

Don't get distracted. Keep it fair.

Michael Fisher said...

"They want to break down the white Christian male power structure of which you [McCain] are a part (and so am I) [McCain nods] and they want to bring in millions of foreign nationals to basically break down the structure we have."

odocoileus said...

1. He set a gold standard when he stated that he had never heard his pastor of 20+ years say these things. Because now people are going to go through all of the available sermons and will try to
If anybody can prove he was in he church when pastor Wright was giving one of these sermons then he's going to be established as a liar. And worse than that someone who deliberately lied to the voters.


Yeah, he's done.

He may even have problems holding on to his Senate seat.

Mrglass said...

It is a shame Obama is rejecting Wright's comments, because they were all spot on, except the religious non-sense of course.

America has lost any claim of moral higher ground since Hiroshima, until the President of the US apologizes for the country's actions in WWII and Vietnam.

Anonymous said...

I don't get it. I agree with what the minister said, what is the problem?? I'm a White woman - actually Jewish, and I haven't heard his thoughts on Jews yet, so maybe I'll change my mind.
Maybe it's because I'm Canadian and here we don't have that kind of patriotism you got there - want to burn the flag here? Burn it, big deal.
For me, what is most upsetting is hearing someone like Senator Obama apologizing for the minister, when the man is telling the truth. It really makes me cringe, forcing a Black man to claim that the racism that the minister faced is not his reality today, and we should all move past it. You know he can't feel that way inside, nor should he. And even more upsetting - why isn't anyone speaking up about this? It's like a witch-hunt in the States, where anyone who says anything against the country, regardless how true, gets persecuted.

odocoileus said...

Wright's POV isn't unusual outside of the States. You can find some variation of it in any college pub in any country in Western Europe.

Western Europeans don't vote in US elections. White middle Americans do.

You can't wrap yourself in red, black, and green, and expect to win a national election in the US. You have to wrap yourself in red, white, and blue.

This shouldn't be a mystery to anyone who wants to run for national office. It's obvious, unless you've been living in a bubble.

(The claim that the bombing of Hiroshima represents some sort of US oppression of non whites is bullshit. It was the Japanese who were the racialist, imperialist power in WWII, clearly and unapologetically so. The Japanese would never have backed down unless faced with overwhelming, massive force. The bombs saved millions of American lives, including black ones.)

cuz said...

Personally, I don't think anyone is exempt from being put on notice in this election. I'm not just talking about the candidates -- I'm talking about the voters. This is America's test too. UBM - got enough #2 pencil's to pass around?

memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ Mrglass

"It is a shame Obama is rejecting Wright's comments, because they were all spot on, except the religious non-sense of course."

Frankly I'm not convinced at all that Obama *has* rejected Wright's views.

NYT: A Candidate, His Minister and the Search for Faith

Money quote:
"Mr. Wright, who has long prided himself on criticizing the establishment, said he knew that he may not play well in Mr. Obama’s audition for the ultimate establishment job.

“If Barack gets past the primary, he might have to publicly distance himself from me,” Mr. Wright said with a shrug. “I said it to Barack personally, and he said yeah, that might have to happen.”"


And this of course will bring Obama's statements into question.

"America has lost any claim of moral higher ground since Hiroshima, until the President of the US apologizes for the country's actions in WWII and Vietnam."

Frankly you're so far wrong it's not even funny.

If we hadn't used nukes on Japan we'd have a memorial to the 2+ million American soldiers dead from the invasion of the Japanese mainland ... along with millions of Japanese citizens conscripted into militia to fight American soldiers.

The Democrats political decision to abandon the South Vietnamese resulted in the murder of 3-4 million Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians.

And lastly there's some really silly focus by liberals on "moral high ground". There is no such thing and the pursuit of that fantasy causes liberals to act in really politically juvenile ways.

LaTonja said...

I think everyone can agree that there has been some great progress involving civil rights and discrimination but there are still some lingering problems (unequal jail sentences, police brutality, housing & employment discrimination and so on) and underlying "blacks are only getting ahead because of affirmative action" attitudes.

What is so amazing is that many Americans are shocked and angry that (all) black people are not happy-go-lucky and are not ready to forget (ignore, perhaps?) what has happened in the past and the injustices that are still occurring.

As a former vet, like Rev. Wright, I will tell you that you can love your country and speak out about the unjustice even if (or especially when) it is unpopular or uncomfortable.

I don't agree with everything he said but the majority of what he said was true...I think alot of people are taken aback by the delivery.

For "J.J.", you said you are moving away from Barack...moving to where? A candidate who would sell her mother and only child to win an election or McCain whose spiritual advisor is calling for the destruction of the religion of Islam?


chocolatechiq.com

Michael Fisher said...

memo...

"If we hadn't used nukes on Japan we'd have a memorial to the 2+ million American soldiers dead from the invasion of the Japanese mainland ... along with millions of Japanese citizens conscripted into militia to fight American soldiers."

Given that we screwed our erstwhile allies, (in WW1), the Japanese and kinda purposely forced them into war against the US by cutting off their oil supplies (official FDR policy), it looks to me that the American dead were completely unnecessary in the first place.

Be that as it may. I assume, memo, that you are not writing your memos from a combat zone.

odocoileus said...

So you're okay with the Japanese' racist, imperialist aggression throughout Asia which preceded the attack on Pearl Harbor? All honky's fault?

Just asking.

cnulan said...

You can't wrap yourself in red, black, and green, and expect to win a national election in the US. You have to wrap yourself in red, white, and blue.

This shouldn't be a mystery to anyone who wants to run for national office. It's obvious, unless you've been living in a bubble.


You shouldn't have to submit to the most knuckle-dragging elements of white nationalism in order to exemplify and uphold an American ideal.

Barack's failure was his inability to smoothly command and control the moral higher ground.

He's batting zero now having knuckled under to the most atavistic tribal elements of zionism and white nationalism.

That's a damn shame...,

Michael Fisher said...

I see Nulan, so you did clarify after all...

Michael Fisher said...

odocoileus...

"So you're okay with the Japanese' racist, imperialist aggression throughout Asia which preceded the attack on Pearl Harbor? All honky's fault?

I see. So the motivation of the United States government was to rescue Asia from racist policies of the Japanese? Noble indeed. Especially from a confirmed apartheid state that had failed to implement it's own 15th amendment to its constitution for 76 years.

memomachine said...

Hmmmmm.

@ Michael Fisher

"Given that we screwed our erstwhile allies, (in WW1), the Japanese and kinda purposely forced them into war against the US by cutting off their oil supplies (official FDR policy), it looks to me that the American dead were completely unnecessary in the first place."

The level of ignorance shown is remarkable. Even by your excessively low standards.

Frankly it's not worth my time to correct the errors in that paragraph.

"Be that as it may. I assume, memo, that you are not writing your memos from a combat zone."

And what relevance does that have? I'm 44 years old and did my time in the US Marines. Did you? Have you? What have you done for your country?

Tell me this. Do you advocate US military intervention in Africa?
Are you willing to be held to your own standard?

Dragon Horse said...

I think something that people should know that for a black politician trying to get into Chicago "black politics" they need to be a member of Wright's church...hell Oprah is a member and most of the people at the church are middle to upper-class blacks, this is no street corner Christian version of the NOI.

Obama should have been quite this church as soon as he joined the U.S. Senate and released a public statement at the time that he just found out about these things that the Wright has said and thrown him under the bus right there, if he knew what was good for him. Obviously he did not.

I would say the best thing Obama can do now is kneecap Hillary...she has so much dirt between her and Bill it is not funny. He has not went there yet, but he should (not him directly but through surrogates). He already has a former Clinton lawyer out saying that Hillary lied about her foreign policy experience. That is good but not enough.

He needs to get his surrogates (not him) to remind people of Whitewater, Paula Jones, Kathleen Willey, Juanita Broderick, Marc Rich, Norman Hsu, the MacDougals, Vince Foster, Travelgate, and Denise Rich’s campaign contributions after her husbands pardon.

He needs to link all of that to Bill's current dealings with Stan Lee and in Kazakhstan with the dictator there. They need to link that or imply there is more in the White House documents she won't release and also with her failure to release her tax return.

To make it short he needs to take over the news cycle again and stop letting that dried up old bitch keep him on defensive and take him off message. He needs to put her on defensive for the rest of this race...but do it in a subtle way to where he looks above it...and he needs women to do it and to point out Hillary is no "victim" and she should stop playing the "gender card" get some of those white female governors who support him to get aggressive.

If he doesn't do this he might lose the nomination. He has to hit her so hard that Super Delegates are reminded that 8 years of Clintion scandals polarized the country and gave us 8 years of George W. He can also probably raise her negatives some and lower her appeal to voters against McCain and use those polling results at the convention to show she is not electable.

I worry that Obama is just not ruthless enough. Lets get something straight. The average voter has an IQ of 100, that ain't saying much. These people also have short memories. Hillary know this and is playing to that level of ignorance, Bill is a master at it.

Obama appeals to white folks who are educated because he speaks in a way that is so abstract only they can get it and have time to reflect on it. The typical Low brow Joe 6 pack does not have the intelligence or time to pontificate about "better angels" he wants someone he can understand, respect, and who will "kick ass".

Obama had to figure out a way to get touch and dirty like James Bond. Notice James Bond kicks all forms of ass and never wrinkles his suit and rarely stains his shirt.

Anonymous said...

I am offended by you calling a woman a bitch, especially an "old dried up" one. Let us not stoop to that level here.

memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ Michael Fisher

"I see. So the motivation of the United States government was to rescue Asia from racist policies of the Japanese? Noble indeed. Especially from a confirmed apartheid state that had failed to implement it's own 15th amendment to its constitution for 76 years."

That was one of the reasons. Or haven't you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking?

But mostly it was because Japan had imperial ambitions beyond that of China and were obviously looking at dominating the entire Pacific ocean.

As for "15th amendment", I'm sure someone who has survived the Cambodian Killing Fields would commiserate with you about how horrible your country has treated you.

cnulan said...

As for "15th amendment", I'm sure someone who has survived the Cambodian Killing Fields would commiserate with you about how horrible your country has treated you.

yeah ni**er!!!

love it or leave it!!!

typical white nationalist drivel and if you don't swallow it hook, line, and sinker - you're a treasonous anti-american swine.

this type of tribal riff raff deserves every iota of the whirlwind swirling his way.

one only prays that he and all his loathsome ilk are soon raptured off the planet and to their fervently wished for just desserts...,

cnulan said...

wow!

what is the world coming to?

this marks the first time I've ever read caspears write something with which I didn't disagree.

damn, we must be on the cusp of the apocalypse.....,

cnulan said...

Too Late To Break Silence Now...,

SJ said...

"You can't wrap yourself in red, black, and green, and expect to win a national election in the US. You have to wrap yourself in red, white, and blue."

Can I steal that?

Michael Fisher said...

memo...

"I'm 44 years old and did my time in the US Marines."

Meaning you ain't never seen a real war where real soldiers shoot back at you (I am quite a bit older than you).

By the way, this is my personal opinion, but looking at the Marines of my generation and earlier (and I had the occasion, under unfortunate circumstances, for a very close look in my time) these days what passes for Marines are a bunch of toy soldiers. Objectively, that would include your generation.

Like I said, you aren't writing your memos from a combat zone.

mint_tea said...

I agree with this from way upthread:

In a strange sort of triangulation, this might actually help Obama in the long run.

...it also will put a nail in the myth that Obama is a "secret Muslim".


The rightwing smear campaign needs to make up their minds: Is Obama a crazy radical Christian or a radical Islamic fundamentalist? He can't be both.

To bad for Daniel Pipes I guess; his "Obama is a terrorist!" whispering campaign ended before it even began.

odocoileus said...

By the way, this is my personal opinion, but looking at the Marines of my generation and earlier (and I had the occasion, under unfortunate circumstances, for a very close look in my time) these days what passes for Marines are a bunch of toy soldiers. Objectively, that would include your generation.

So the men and women serving today are toy soldiers? Am I really hearing you say that people serving in Afghanistan and Iraq are toy soldiers?

Michael Fisher said...

odocoileus, you ever been in or around the military? Are you old enough to have seen Vietnam? Or the soldiers thereof? Draftees who went against their will and still served valiantly and died?

I'm a product of the military, I've seen 'em all. Sheeet. Even my high school was a DoD high school. The pampered folks in the military today could in no shape, form, or fashion hang with the these guys. That's just an objective fact.

You can try to make this sound as "unpatriotic" as you wanna.

Mrglass said...

"If we hadn't used nukes on Japan we'd have a memorial to the 2+ million American soldiers dead from the invasion of the Japanese mainland ... along with millions of Japanese citizens conscripted into militia to fight American soldiers."

Why not release the nuclear bomb on an isolated military base? Instead, the US committed genocide, wiping out two cities and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians. 9/11 multiplied by 1000...

No other country has ever nuked a city. America alone is guilty of the worse crime against humanity possible. Apart from Nazi Germany of course, but that regime fell. Not so much in Washington, without ever apologizing for their horrible war crimes.

dez said...

He needs to link all of that to Bill's current dealings with Stan Lee

What's wrong with Bill working with Marvel Comics? :-D

memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ cnulan

"typical white nationalist drivel and if you don't swallow it hook, line, and sinker - you're a treasonous anti-american swine."

Amusing.

1. I'm not white.

2. You're really a bit of whiner.

You're given a free education, plenty of opportunities to succeed and make something of your life. But instead you'd rather sit in a dark corner mutter imprecations at America and chewing on your supposed grievances like stale vomit.

3. As I'm a immigrant from another country I know what I'm talking about when I say that America is the greatest.

4. Better to be a black man in America than a Tibetian in Tibet.

Or so it seems.

memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ Michael Fisher s

"Meaning you ain't never seen a real war where real soldiers shoot back at you (I am quite a bit older than you)."

Nope. But I wish I had.

Instead I got assigned to the worst job at the worst duty station in the United States Marine Corps. A place where Fleet Marines lasted 3 days, at most, before fleeing back to Fleet. A duty station where Marines averaged 1 hour of sleep a day for 5-7 days at a time, which turned some of my fellow Marines rather psychotic.

A lovely duty station that required any enlisted Infantry MOS that wanted to re-enlist to do so for a minimum of 6 years, all of which had to be at that duty station. At the end of which if, **if**, they could replace you then you might have a chance to be transferred to another place ... but only if you again signed up for another 6 years with no guarantee that you would be re-assigned.

Oh yeah that was fucking ducky. I really enjoyed years of that fucking hilarity.

"By the way, this is my personal opinion, but looking at the Marines of my generation and earlier (and I had the occasion, under unfortunate circumstances, for a very close look in my time) these days what passes for Marines are a bunch of toy soldiers. Objectively, that would include your generation."

I've met more Marines in my lifetime than had ever served.

"Like I said, you aren't writing your memos from a combat zone."

Like that matters.

You have no idea how little I value your opinion on this.

memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ mint_tea

"The rightwing smear campaign needs to make up their minds: Is Obama a crazy radical Christian or a radical Islamic fundamentalist? He can't be both."

1. It's not a "rightwing" smear campaign. It's a leftwing one.

2. Most conservatives and Republicans simply find it hardly credible that Obama could attend a Islamic madrassa in Indonesia without having converted to Islam.

3. Pastor Wright is a member of a fringe Christian sect and someone who has a minor in Islam.

Which is an odd combination.

memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ Michael Fisher

"odocoileus, you ever been in or around the military? Are you old enough to have seen Vietnam? Or the soldiers thereof? Draftees who went against their will and still served valiantly and died?"

1. Frankly I don't buy into the whole "draftees are victims" bullshit. You're an American and that offers a lot of opportunities and it comes with a price tag. Don't like the price, go somewhere else.

Plenty of draftees fought and died for America throughout it's history. It's just the whiny ones from the Vietnam era who demand all the tear-jerking.

"I'm a product of the military, I've seen 'em all. Sheeet. Even my high school was a DoD high school. The pampered folks in the military today could in no shape, form, or fashion hang with the these guys. That's just an objective fact."

Well. That certainly defines suffering to me.

"You can try to make this sound as "unpatriotic" as you wanna."

Why bother. It's clear that America has done pretty well without your patriotism to this point so it's something that nobody's going to miss.

memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ mrglass

"Why not release the nuclear bomb on an isolated military base? Instead, the US committed genocide, wiping out two cities and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians. 9/11 multiplied by 1000..."

You really need to learn about that era.

A. You really think the Japanese would've been impressed by a recording of an atomic blast? Hollywood has always had a reputation for special effects.

B. We had *2* nuclear weapons at the time and enough uranium to make a couple more. The nukes dropped on Japan were actually more in the way of a bluff. It would've taken months to years to make any new weapons.

If the Japanese had absorbed the nukes and not surrendered then the alternative would've been either to invade, wait for new nukes or use poison gas.

"No other country has ever nuked a city. America alone is guilty of the worse crime against humanity possible. Apart from Nazi Germany of course, but that regime fell. Not so much in Washington, without ever apologizing for their horrible war crimes."

I see you're the recipient of a liberal education.

A. Unit 721. Google it.

B. Rape of Nanking.

C. Bataan Death March.

D. Ritual cannibalism by Japanese officers.

E. Slave labor by Japanese Army.

F. Firebombing of Tokyo.

G. German army captured 4+ million Russian soldiers during WWII yet by the end of the war there were almost no Russian POWs.

H. Or how about the destruction of Grozny by the Russian army a couple years ago?

...

But here's a question for you:

You get to choose who dies.

A. 1-2 million American soldiers along with 20-30 million Japanese soldiers and civilians conscripted into badly armed militia battalions.

B. 220k+ Japanese soldiers and civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Your choice. Because that was the choice Americans had in 1945.

Michael Fisher said...

memo...

"Frankly I don't buy into the whole 'draftees are victims' bullshit."

Clearly, oh behind-an-anon-avatar-hiding-supposedly Marine hero, you can not read. Who said that draftees were victims. I said despite their having been drafted against their will they fought and died valiantly for their country.

Now if you think that I was exposed to a real war where real soldiers shoot back at you in high school, that then would dove-tail neatly with your other oh-so-logical pronouncements.

GTFOH

Michael Fisher said...

"Nope. But I wish I had."

I just noticed that.

This utterly moronic statement all by itself shows that you, if at all a soldier, were a tinker toy soldier. You betta stay with video war gaming or watching Saving Private Ryan.

Types like you get good soldiers killed.

(((shakin' head)))

mint_tea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cnulan said...

Michelle Malkin (aka memomachine) clearly got passed around the baracks for the amusement of the other toy soldiers a few times too many...,

I can understand how - from your perspective - being the resident soap dropper here beats being a 2 peso trannyboy wherever you came from.

mint_tea said...

Here's the astute Al Giordano take, consistent with malcolm's observation upthread:

Given that some public opinion polls say that as much as 13 percent of the electorate still thinks Barack Obama is a Muslim, the more focus on his Christian pastor the more that smear gets permanently erased.

memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ Michael Fisher

"Clearly, oh behind-an-anon-avatar-hiding-supposedly Marine hero, you can not read. Who said that draftees were victims. I said despite their having been drafted against their will they fought and died valiantly for their country."

The key word is "despite". The whole crux of your written paragraph is to accord a victim status to draftees.

So I can read perfectly well thank you. However you seem to have great trouble deciphering your own work.

"Now if you think that I was exposed to a real war where real soldiers shoot back at you in high school, that then would dove-tail neatly with your other oh-so-logical pronouncements."

You're not acquainted with sarcasm are you?

memomachine said...

Hmmmmm.

@ Michael Fisher

"I just noticed that.

This utterly moronic statement all by itself shows that you, if at all a soldier, were a tinker toy soldier. You betta stay with video war gaming or watching Saving Private Ryan."


No I am a United States Marine.

If you were a Marine you'd understand implicitly.

If you personally knew a Marine you'd understand with little difficulty.

If you had been keeping up with the news out of Iraq and Afghanistan you'd understand it.

But you're not, and so you don't.

Here's a hint: Marines are Marines because they want to serve their country and the Corps.

"Types like you get good soldiers killed."

Ignorance meter redlined?

Check.

...

Find a Marine. Ask. Learn.

memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ cnulan

"Michelle Malkin (aka memomachine) clearly got passed around the baracks for the amusement of the other toy soldiers a few times too many...,"

You amuse me. You're like the traditional court dwarf that people used to keep around for entertainment.

"I can understand how - from your perspective - being the resident soap dropper here beats being a 2 peso trannyboy wherever you came from."

I defer to your personal experiences.

For my part I'll continue to remain ignorant of such things.

memomachine said...

Hmmm.

@ mint_tea

Not necessarily.

The problem is the hate-America sermonizing. It appears to be the same kind of anti-American stuff coming out of muslims.

So it's not necessarily a good thing in that regard.

Michael Fisher said...

Like I said. A "Marine" that proudly hides behind an avatar.

As an aside, interesting indeed, that those of us who are doing their patriotic duty and try to expose injustice and racism usually operate fully in the open while the memos of the day stay anonymous.

mint_tea said...

memomachine wrote: I just think the rose-colored glasses you're collectively using need to go.

This is from a previous post but it really stuck in my craw. Who is memomachine talking to, if not a straw man? Many if not most commenters here have been highly critical/ambivalent toward Obama - up until Clinton's disgusting tactics reached an unacceptable threshold.

I don't expect an Obama presidency to be the second coming of Jesus. But I am confident that he can get us out of this alternate Hell dimension Bush has warped us into.

My expectations:

*a steady presidency that doesn't careen recklessly from position to position - unlike the dangerous, foolish John McCain

*pull out of Iraq ASAP

*end to government-sanctioned torture

*end to Guantanamo. period - if they're guilty, fry them or puree them I don't care, but give every single person rotting there a fair trial

*end the warmongering clamor for the next Iraq ("bomb Iran, bomb Iran, bomb Iran")

Everything else is just gravy.

Tax reform, healthcare reform, school reform, an agressive energy conservation policy, an effective immigration policy - I won't hold my breath.

memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ Michael Fisher

"Like I said. A "Marine" that proudly hides behind an avatar."

Ahhhh. Another "chickenhawk" meme in play.

1. You're starting to bore me.

2. I notice that you didn't respond to anything else I wrote.

"As an aside, interesting indeed, that those of us who are doing their patriotic duty and try to expose injustice and racism usually operate fully in the open while the memos of the day stay anonymous."

Oh yeah you're the patriot risking life, limb and a Blogger account to confront the Man.

The fantasy implicit in that statement is beyond strange.

memomachine said...

Hmmmm.

@ mint_tea

"This is from a previous post but it really stuck in my craw. Who is memomachine talking to, if not a straw man? Many if not most commenters here have been highly critical/ambivalent toward Obama - up until Clinton's disgusting tactics reached an unacceptable threshold."

And that outrage was causing people to loose their perspective. Not a good idea as I know from personal experience.

Hey. I voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004. I know all about making mistakes.

"I don't expect an Obama presidency to be the second coming of Jesus. But I am confident that he can get us out of this alternate Hell dimension Bush has warped us into."

Barack Obama has never held any substantial executive position in his life. The closest he came to an executive position was in the Harvard Law Review, where he accomplished nothing.

So you're basing your opinion on something that doesn't include fact.

I.e. rose-colored glasses.

"*a steady presidency that doesn't careen recklessly from position to position - unlike the dangerous, foolish John McCain"

*shrug* McCain's never been President so I think you're just projecting to reinforce some very bad arguments.

"*pull out of Iraq ASAP"

As long as you're willing to accept responsibility for the deaths of 4-5 million Iraqis.

"*end to government-sanctioned torture"

A. Waterboarding isn't torture.

B. Only 3 terrorists were waterboarded.

C. Actual torture of captured terrorists is done in allied countries a la rendition.

Which was started by Bill Clinton and Al Gore.

D. If you outlaw hard questioning of terrorists then don't whine when thousands of Americans die because we couldn't get the necessary information. The information we got from those 3 waterboarded terrorists was invaluable in preventing attacks here in the USA.

"*end to Guantanamo. period - if they're guilty, fry them or puree them I don't care, but give every single person rotting there a fair trial"

That's what is going on with the military tribunals.

"*end the warmongering clamor for the next Iraq ("bomb Iran, bomb Iran, bomb Iran")"

As long as you're willing to accept responsibility for a nuclear armed Iran.

And this is something that you should give careful thought to.

A. Iran isn't so much a government as a territory of many gangs.

B. The power structure is organized more along a gang hierarchy so it's difficult to predict what they will do.

C. Iran wants to dominate the entire Middle East.

D. If Iran becomes a nuclear power then in defense so will Jordan, Saudi Arabia and a number of other Middle Eastern countries.

E. You really want nukes in the hands of the most unstable people on the planet?

"Everything else is just gravy."

Good luck with that.

"Tax reform, healthcare reform, school reform, an agressive energy conservation policy, an effective immigration policy - I won't hold my breath."

A. Tax reform = More taxes.

B. healthcare reform = less healthcare + more taxes

C. school reform = pipe dream.

A major power block in the Democratic party are the teacher's unions. For the last 40+ years the Democratic party has fucked over black families in favor of the teacher's unions and now you think they're going to change?

The only change that's going to happen in "school reform" will be:

Less education + more taxes.

D. an agressive energy conservation policy = higher prices and more taxes.

The method of choice within the Democratic party is to force conservation by raising prices. The problem of course is the Law of Unintended Consequences which will also cause the Democrats to make a crazy-quilt of regulations to absolve some groups from these taxes and not others. All requiring a massive bureaucracy.

That and the idiotic ethanol from corn nonsense we've been seeing lately.

...

It's nice to wish. But don't expect anything good.

Frankly I think an Obama Presidency will badly damage both the country an the Democratic party.

mint_tea said...

I don't even know where to begin. Is it even worth responding?

McCain's never been President so I think you're just projecting to reinforce some very bad arguments.

Let's start with this:

Brendan Nyhan notes that if you use the Keith-Poole methodology for congressional ideology you get the conclusion that John McCain has the most inconsistent record of anyone in the Senate.

Looked at in a less adoring light, it's just very hard to see any underlying principles about domestic policy running through McCain's career.

I.e. this is not projection - John McCain careens cluelessly from position to position.

mint_tea said...

A. Waterboarding isn't torture.
B. Only 3 terrorists were waterboarded.


Just wow. If you believe this, I have a bridge to sell you. You also completely ignore the systematic torture and abuse in Abu Ghraib.

I highly recommend you watch The Ghosts of Abu Ghraib as I am certain you have not done so.

The filmmakers set out to explore how "a few bad apples" inflicted torture - what they uncovered was the systematic, aggresive encouragement of torture from the very top. The underlings, of course, took the fall.

mint_tea said...

As long as you're willing to accept responsibility for the deaths of 4-5 million Iraqis.

I am of Muslim, Middle-Eastern descent. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

The vast majority of Arabs and Muslims in the Middle East look on with impotent fury and humiliation at the American occupation and half-assed "reconstruction", and want them to get the HELL out.

mint_tea said...

A. Tax reform = More taxes.
B. healthcare reform = less healthcare + more taxes
C. school reform = pipe dream.


You're projecting here. Completely.

I am opposed to teachers' unions.
I am ambivalent to socialized medicine.
I DO support having a saner, simplified tax structure.

And in any case, my point - which you completely missed - was that I don't expect ANY of these things from Obama.

Like so much else of what you wrote, these statements are like an untethered blimp, floating away from reality.

mhu cao said...

Wright said a lot of controversial stuff and some truly nasty stuff, too. Obama denounced the nasty stuff, and I applaud him for the courage. At the same time, Obama hasn't said what his positions *are* when it comes to separatism and reparations, as Wright long preached. Look, JFK assured the people that he wouldn't let the Pope dictate his stance on a lot of hot topics, and spelled out his position to a rather hostile crowd. He silenced them and received a lot of credit from non-Catholics for his forthright approach. He settled their fears. Obama ought to continue to face this issue squarely, and with detail. *That* will shut down his critics. They can't infer his views because he spelled them out. "I denounce those words" is not specific enough, because we don't know what Obama rejects. Rev. Wright must have had some good things that Obama liked and that drew him to TUCC and Wright. If Obama does a JFK, like JFK, he could put an end to a lot of this smoke and fire.