Monday, December 22, 2008

Random wrongness

102 comments:

KeWayne said...

$8.00 tip on $160 equals 5%. My next door neighbor's 20 year-old daughter waits tables at TGI Fridays and tells us black men tip well, but black woman tip very, very poorly and sometimes not all at all to her white girlfriends working there.

Not a social commentary, just passing on what's been told to me...

Anonymous said...

The server was out of line chasing her to the parking lot and yelling at her, but he was just saying what every restaurant person thinks.

She's right that you're legally allowed to stiff. You're also legally allowed to wear the same underwear for a year until your stank can clear a room.

KeWayne said...

Is there a reason she continually mentions the three of them were the only blacks at the restaurant? Did that need to be told?

Also, her language was very colorful. Using the F word 4-5 times per sentence is a sure way to mask your intelligence (and credibility)...

Anonymous said...

hrmph. what would miss glory say?

Michael Fisher said...

She got a cute ass.

Dollar Bill said...

1.Service industry people work hard and tipping is the only way for them to be compensated for the fact that they are legally underpaid.

Your paperboy probably makes more before tips.

2.The customer is always right.

If anything,there should have been a non-confrontational inquiry as to if the service had been un-satisfactory,hence the tip.
Chasing them outside is also "not cool".

For every person that doesn't or undertips,there is someone that overtips(me) and it all balances out if you do a good job and keep smiling.

3.Even hearing the story in her words,I really don't think it was a race issue at all,but bitches do come in all colors.

Perhaps with her usual culinary experiences being Taco Hell and Mickey D's, she is just ignorant to all that is entailed in fine dining,including tipping,condiments that don't come in plastic packets,cloth napkins and cutlery made of metal that doesn't include a utensil called a "spork".

Jack J. said...

Did she actually say "colored"?

O.K., she's a low class, boorish woman who really needs to understand that if you're going out for a fine dinner, have enough money for an appropriate tip so that you don't promote a "negro rich" stereotype. I other words, don't buy a Mercedes if you can't afford the upkeep.

That said, the waiter at this establishment was just as boorish and arrogant for chasing down a patron for a bigger tip.

The young lady should limit her "fine dining" to a more familiar restaurant chain until she learns a bit of upscale dining etiquette so that she can really enjoy herself.

The waiter needs a permanent position in the kitchen.

As an aside. I had a server chase me down because I left a 15% tip (generous considering his attitude) and he thought he deserved 25% so I told him "O.K., give that tip back and I'll give you what you deserve." He did, I gave him back $1.00. Then I went to the manager to get his whiney ass fired.

KeWayne said...

Michael Fisher said...
She got a cute ass.
************
Unfortunately, I guess I didn't watch long enough.

Days like These! said...

They should have left at least $15 ($5 each person) for a tip. Then again, is tipping really MANDATORY?<<--I'm serious.

Did MIchael Fisher say she got a nice ass? LMAO

Oh wait....she said COLORED.

I'm done. Done. Done.

She is Spesha!

54th and Crenshaw?

5:13 on the video and there's babies in the background?????

Hey KeWayne--check out--5:33 on the video!

I'm out of here.

Undercover Black Man said...

Then again, is tipping really MANDATORY?<<--I'm serious.

Guess what else isn't "mandatory" though, Tanyetta: Good service!

And the chick in this video would be the first and loudest to complain if a waiter/waitress didn't serve her ign'ant ass as promptly and politely as white customers were being served.

Alas, she has done her part to create a world in which black people get treated worse in restaurants. By posting this video, she's done more than her part.

And got the nerve to think she cute!

Qadree said...

Alas, she has done her part to create a world in which black people get treated worse in restaurants. By posting this video, she's done more than her part.

If you agree with this you must also agree that any black person who gets mistreated is justified in treating white people worse than they treat anyone else.

I've received bad service, been denied service, and accused of many things over the years by white people because of my ethnicity and I don't use that as an excuse to promote any race based hatred or biased treatment of the people.

Her behavior doesn't justify racial bias and if they think like that they would have just considered her the exception, not like the others, if she tipped well. Making excuses for racial bias is just promoting ignorance.

joy316 said...

If you don't have the money to leave a decent tip, stay home!!!

Undercover Black Man said...

Making excuses for racial bias is just promoting ignorance.

But Qadree... if black people as a class actually do tip poorly, then it's not "racial bias" to make a presumption about the next black folks you have to wait on.

In other words, it's not "discrimination" to treat unequal things unequally. It's a normal coping skill.

Speaking of coping skills, a young woman who cannot grasp the social value of good tipping will probably have bigger problems in life than being bitched out by the occasional fed-up waiter.

Days like These! said...

I think a lot of people aren't aware of the tipping 'rules' no matter what their racial background is. I'm serious.

My other pet peeve when going out to eat
with a group of people, when people start
adding up their 'part' of the bill. I had a burger and a water. The other person had a steak and a beer, the other...well, you see where I"m going with this.

Here's the deal, if the bill is $100 and there's 5 people, everyone pay $25 each and this will
cover the tip too. Right? Wrong? Hell if I know. This is just something I would do. I wouldn't waste my time adding up this and that. Just split the bill and add in a little extra for the tip.

I could be wrong. I've never been a waitstaff member. I have issues, I probably would have
been the dude that ran after people in the parking lot for stiffing me.

Ok, I'll go now. I wanna watch that video again. She was comical.

Qadree said...

But Qadree... if black people as a class actually do tip poorly, then it's not "racial bias" to make a presumption about the next black folks you have to wait on.

Black is not a class designation unless you are a racist or believe that all black people are alike. I don't see how you can say it's unacceptable for Rev. Wright or Farrakhan to lump white people into a class based on their experiences and then turn around and say it's acceptable to do that when the people you are lumping together are black.

If you believe this I'd like to know how a single person (a waiter at a restaurant) can make class designations based on isolated personal encounters.

Do you think it's acceptable for a black person who experiences patterns of racism with white people to turn this into class behavior associated with all white people?

Should I take my personal encounters with Jewish people and use them to for a class that covers all Jewish people.

This is more than a step backwards away from civilized thinking, it's totally unsophisticated goes against all of the progress that has been made in this area.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ So Qadree... are you saying that black folks on average tip the same as everybody else?

Qadree said...

are you saying that black folks on average tip the same as everybody else?

Everybody else? There are assumptions in the question that go against the way that I think. I don't think you can make a valid comparison between black folks and every other group on the planet as far as tipping in restaurants goes.

What I'm addressing are the beliefs at the root of the statement that you are making and the assumptions that go with it. If you can address that you don't need to talk about who's tipping or whatever because the implications are much broader than that.

I'm not saying that drawing conclusions about who tips better will have no validity, but the way you are approaching it boils it all down to race when these are most likely class issues that transcend race.

If a disproportionate amount of black people exist within a class that is known for not being educated on certain matters you can expect a pattern to develop based on that, but to turn correlation into cause at that stage is very misleading.

Since you didn't respond directly to the questions I raised I'm going to assume from the question that you left for me that you do believe it's acceptable to lump all black people into a single class since that's what your question would require me to do. I would also have to conclude from your previous blog entries that you don't think it's acceptable for black people to lump other racial groups into monolithic classes.

The question now is why?

Anonymous said...

come on y'all...don't be hatin!

Lyndon said...

Like Jack J. said, she's just a boorish woman who doesn't understand the ways of fine dining. Black or not.

The waiter was out of line as well.

Undercover Black Man said...

If you believe this I'd like to know how a single person (a waiter at a restaurant) can make class designations based on isolated personal encounters.

The problem with your apparent argument, Qadree, is that it's contrary to the way we navigate the real world.

Let's say you wanted to go see a popular movie. And you wanted to minimize the chance of audience members talking out loud to the screen.

Would you go to a black theater or a white theater?

I hope that clarifies my point.

The Obenson Report said...

Q and UBM -

I don't believe anyone here thinks that it's acceptable to lump black people (or any other group) into a single class.

But the fact of the matter is that people of all groups do, and often overwhelmingly so.

Questions we should be addressing are:

1. What can be done to combat this? Realistically... not some idealistic utopia, in which social constructs like race no longer exist, and we are all living in harmony; because the likelihood of that happening in our lifetime is zero.

2. Or do we come up with solutions that are within the rules already in play (assuming we can't change them), and essentially carry the burden of how our individual groups are perceived by others, on our shoulders?

3. Or do we each say, eff what others think about what this lady did, because she doesn't speak for an entire group of people; and if anyone outside the group chooses to regard everyone in the group in the same manner, they're simply ignorant and don't speak for their entire group either. This would be nice... but unrealistic.

All that said - I love seeing social norms (like tipping) challenged, even if the challenge is uninformed. That's where further, deeper questions arise, and change can begin.

DeAngelo Starnes said...

This reminds me of Resorvoir Dogs and Steve Buscemi's rant. BTW, she did have a cute, non-stretchmark ass.

Qadree said...

Let's say you wanted to go see a popular movie. And you wanted to minimize the chance of audience members talking out loud to the screen.

Would you go to a black theater or a white theater?


I generally go to an early show to avoid the younger crowd. The theater I usually go to is predominantly white and it's noisy as hell, cell phones going off, babies crying, people talking to the screen, etc.

There are a lot of ignorant people in the world and they navigate through it accordingly. That does not mean I will join them or promote that way of thinking as ideal.

Tambay, contrary to what you are saying it is apparent that someone here thinks it's acceptable to lump all black people into a single class.

We don't have to go to the extreme of choosing an idealistic utopia or willful ignorance. UBM doesn't want to take personal ownership of those beliefs, instead saying it's the way of the world as if he has nothing to do with it.

I'm well aware of what is normal in our society, but I'm not going to stand behind it and blindly wave the flag of ignorance as if I have no choice. Blaming the actions of racist white people on black people is unacceptable.

Why is it acceptable to use the negative actions of one black person as some sort of class representation when you're not willing to do that to other races? If the only reason you have is that everyone else is doing it that says more about you than does about anyone else.

There's a time for planning and execution and there's a time for intelligent discourse that rises above the restrictions that dealing with ignorant people places on you. You can't have one without the other.

Anonymous said...

"normal" or "normative"

Undercover Black Man said...

Why is it acceptable to use the negative actions of one black person as some sort of class representation when you're not willing to do that to other races?

It's not about the actions of "one black person." This one black person in the video represents a larger truth: that black folks tend to tip less.

This fact is widely known in the restaurant industry.

And if you were a waiter and made your living on tips, that fact would probably piss you off some.

Art said...

So sad.

bklyn6 said...

She got a cute ass.

Crack is wack.

Unfortunately, I guess I didn't watch long enough.

Unfortunately, I did.

Of course she don't tip. How else could she afford a web cam, computer, and high-speed internet access?

And trying to make a racial issue out of it. Negress, please.

Undercover Black Man said...

Of course she don't tip. How else could she afford a web cam, computer, and high-speed internet access?

Zing!

phx said...

Whoa. Back off boys. I saw her first.

KeWayne said...

Michael Fisher said...
She got a cute ass.

DeAngelo Starnes said...
...BTW, she did have a cute, non-stretchmark ass.

Days like These! said...
Hey KeWayne--check out--5:33 on the video!
**********************
Damn you three, now I have to rewatch this disaster to check a damn clock and a rear end

phx said...

I think people need to be trained to think the best of others when first meeting them. Let them prove they're not worthy of it. If I'm raised to do that, I'm not going to make negative generalizations about YOU.
For some reason people don't take this seriously.

Anonymous said...

I saw the first few minutes of this. I had to cut it off after the waiter chasing after her.

How do you go to a place order for $150plus meal and not have at least 15% for tip. That was some serious nigger mess. They were scraping up money for the tip. Whaaaaaat???!!!

The waiter was foul as well.

What was the point of dining there? What were they trying to prove? She is boorish and crass. She reminds me of the folks living in the projects who own a BMW or Mercedes Benz.

ItAintEazy said...

@Michael Fisher, et al:

When she decided to "show her ass" she goddamn well means it, huh?

NunaOni said...

So here in lies issue...

When I get good service I tip 20% or more (I lived with a waiter and the guilt stays with you long after they are gone); however, if I receive poor service I tip poorly or not at all. So did I receive poor service because the waiter wasn't expecting a good tip -or- does the waiter, in failing to equate my bad tip with his poor service, just lump me in with "all Black women"?

This chick is triflin' but what's worse is a whole class of service people who don't do their job properly based on a piece of their salary that is a gift.

KeWayne said...

Philly's not too far off the beaten track, but we tip 20% in this little 'burgh.

Remember, wait staff receive an hourly wage of far less than minimum wage. Usually $2.50 or so an hour. He also pays a portion of all tips to the busboys, bartender and in some cases, the hostess. So tipping is NOT a gift.

If you try hard enough, you could easily nitpick the entire evening - too little ice in the cocktails, five shrimp in the appetizer when you expected six, still eating your salad when the entree arrives, etc., etc. If you are waiting to be disappointed, don't worry it has to happen. If that's the case, stay home.

It's rare in our group (3-4 couples) when we dine out that we do not tip properly. If service is that bad, we will tell the waiter something like, "We were very disappointed in the (slow service, cold potatoes, weak drinks, etc.) and I hope it improves if we decide to come her again. He/She will then expect a lesser tip; but NEVER below 10% unless the service was rude, condescending, etc. This girl did not once complain about the service she received.

It's NOT $5 per person, it's 20%. Take the bill, for example, $211.15 and divide by 10 = $21.15 and double it to $42.30; rounding up or down. Otherwise, consider cafeteria style dining where you serve yourself and probably get the poor service that you deserve.

Is the 'left coast' that cheap, David??

BTW, I thought her ass was as skanky as her mouth.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Don't blame L.A., KeWayne. Some people just don't know... and even when they know, they don't care.

Like Miss Assy here... she seemed to understand that "10 to 15 percent" was standard. But then she goes on this bullshit rant about "He took this job, he shoulda known some days you get tipped more, some days less."

To me, that bespeaks a deeper problem about her disconnection from the concept of responsibility for her own actions.

It would take something extraordinary for me not to tip 20 percent. The only time I stiffed a waitress was a few years ago in Vegas... and it wasn't even her fault. Looking back on it, I was in the wrong... but here's what happened.

Me and a woman in an Italian restuarant in one of the Strip hotels. I get a pasta dish. Some other dude (not the waitress) comes around asking if I want parmessan cheese on it. I say, "A little bit." And this dude proceeds to shovel it on.

It ruined the meal. But I didn't say anything... I just simmered about it. Fuck else was I gonna do? Ask for a whole new meal?

I was wrong in not saying something to the waitress later, as KeWayne says one should. I just stiffed her ass. Literally like $2. I'm like, "Let her fuckin' figure it out."

Not my shining moment as a human being.

NunaOni said...

KeWayne I think you misunderstood my post...I am a very good tipper. Maybe I should add that it is very rare that I tip poorly. Even if a waiter is inept (due to inexperience or whatever) I will tip 15%. I tip poorly when I am ignored or treated rudely. I never tip for bad food because that is the kitchen's fault, not the waiter.

The last time I didn't tip as when the waiter picked up a plate I was still working on and then actually tossed it on the table when I told him I wasn't finished. I spoke to the manager so he knows why he wasn't tipped.

Is tipping a gift, yes it is especially since (1) there are restaurants that pay a living wage (2) the gratuity isn't part of a bill for parties under 6 people (3) I can decide on the amount to tip.

If the tip is not required to receive the service, it is a gift.

Michael Fisher said...

qadree...

"Why is it acceptable to use the negative actions of one black person as some sort of class representation when you're not willing to do that to other races?"

The emphasis being on the word "negative".

Mills easily concentrates on the "negative" aspects of "black" life and people as a class of people, and tends to point to "positive" aspects as achievement by black individuals.

In other words, when it comes to black folk as a group, negative is the norm and positive is the exception.

With people Mills designates as whites, it is the other way around. There he accentuates the positive as a group achievement (Mills - white people gave black people the alphabet) while the negative (Mills - racism and other ills are practiced only by individual white people) is individualized.


In other words, when it comes to white folk as a group, positive is the norm and negative is the exception.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Yeah. I suck.

DeAngelo Starnes said...

I really think Quentin was onto something about tipping in Resorvoir Dogs. Nevertheless, I tip according to the level of service. And I agree when there's some unattentiveness or rudeness, the level of tip sinks. But I've told wait staff that if the food or the drinks aren't right, that it affects their tips so they better communicate with the kitchen and bar to make it right. And if that's a problem, I tell them I want to talk to the manager. Usually works, unless I unwittingly ate or drank some spit.

Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"Yeah, I suck"

That ain't even the point David. Your type of white racist thinking is harmful. Taken to it's logical conclusion this is what results: Leo Felton Felton is another "Undercover Blackman"

quirkychick said...

I sent this to friends who currently work in restaurants (higher end dining) and asked straight up if tipping breaks down along racial lines - the answer is no it doesn't. Gender lines yes, with women typically tipping better than men.

I think that this young woman and her friends probably don't dine that often, but really do tend to go to Taco Bell and McDonalds or chain restaurants where it's probably more par for the course to leave 5%.

I too have been chased out of a restaurant, but I left two cents after an exceedingly long night of the worst service and attitude ever. When the waitress followed me out she asked where her tip was, I told her my tip was that she should be nicer and actually provide some service and maybe next time she'd get some money.

My tip to this young lady is to stick to the restaurants she's used to, because clearly she couldn't really afford to eat in the place they chose. Tip and tax are always part of the meal in nicer restaurants because the tables don't turn but twice in a night.

KeWayne said...

Michael Fisher said...
...Felton is another "Undercover Blackman"
************

Don't know Mills, no reason to defend him, but...
I think you have disagreed with a few comments UBM has posted and, like a good pit bull, just won't let go of them.

If he has stated, "blacks are dumb and whites are smart", he is wrong to say so because he is misinformed. If he quotes reliable stats ranking intelligence benchmarks of various races, why would YOU argue? If he feels, and then writes, that he believes the behavior of some blacks reflect poorly on the entire race, why are you arguing that point? I have visited your blog (it is very, very good) a few times and I haven't noticed whites posting comments, but it appears to me you are harder on what Mills writes than you might be toward some posts by ignorant whites. To compare him to Felton, a convicted skin-head felon is just wrong, and mightily diminishes your credibility on many subjects.

In my opinion. we (blacks) should not have to act in such a way to 'appease' society, but we shouldn't go out of our way to be ignorant and then say, "Watchu lookin' at, MF'er". Or, literally and figuratively show our ass to the world...

Marcus said...

"reliable stats ranking intelligence benchmarks of various races"

Don't exist Kewayne.

Dollar Bill said...

"I too have been chased out of a restaurant, but I left two cents after an exceedingly long night of the worst service and attitude ever."

Leaving pennies is a death blow,more than a low tip,no tip or complaining to management.I have witnessed wait staff losing their minds over that and one actually throwing the copper at the customers head!

There is no clearer message than leaving pennies.
And in extreme cases is well deserved.

Anonymous said...

UBM,

Black men, "as a class" (whatever that means) tend to participate in more crime than other folks. So I guess the next time a white cop jacks your ass for DWB you'll be completely down with?
Ridiculous generalization. Try to factor in region (I waited tables in Philly and blacks there DID NOT tip less than whites; in NC they sometimes did), income level, education, style of restaurant, etc etc etc etc etc.

"She's done her part to create a world ...."

Thank goodness that crazy white chick who carved a "B" into her face really wasn't attacked by some random crazy black homeless man. Because -- since every bad act by a black person justifies later racist assumptions against all black people -- though, of course, not the other way around -- I would then have had to vote against Obama, on the assumption that ---

-- never mind. I can't even bother to continue with this.

What?

Undercover Black Man said...

Because -- since every bad act by a black person justifies later racist assumptions against all black people --

Oh anonymous stranger, thanks for blessing us with your insight.

My point is simple: Why is it widely assumed through the restaurant industry that blacks tip less than whites? Because the restaurant industry is racist?

No. It's because blacks do tend to tip less. Therefore, any individual black person who willfully scorns social norms and undertips... reinforces that assumption.

And I'm further saying that if more black people get poorer service in restaurants, because the waitstaff believes that excellent service to blacks won't be rewarded... then who's to blame for that?

The fuckers who undertip, that's who.

Michael Fisher said...

KeWayne...

"If he quotes reliable stats ranking intelligence benchmarks of various races, why would YOU argue?"

Because, KeWayne, there are no such things as "intelligence benchmarks of various races" as Mills very well knows. Why? Because there is no such thing as biological human races, as Mills very well knows as well.

Unless, of course, you, KeWayne, can exactly define to us what the biological physical characteristics (exact measurements) of these various races are and what exactly prompted you to select these physical characteristics as those of a race in the first place.

In addition you then will have to explain why you correlated "intelligence" with, let's say skin color (which shade exactly) and not, let's say nose hair length.

Mills is very aware of all of that cause we've gone through the whole thing both on his blog, on the Assault, and in private conversations.

Next, I'm not saying that Mills is Felton, I am saying that his type of white racist thinking is identical to Felton's and that Felton (who supposedly has been tested to be at a genius level) just took the reasoning to it's logical conclusion.

Why am I hard on David?

Because David can get you to accept notions of "black" inferiority a lot more readily than any white supremacist skin head or even plain 'ole white person.

Further, if you look at the history of the last 18 or so years, you'll find Mills popping up in some pivotal historic events which he helped to catalyze.

During his tenure with the ultra-reactionary Sun Myung Moon-owned Washington Times, Mills basically helped to kill the positive "take responsibility for yourself", "fight racist injustice" movement in Hip Hop and thus helped usher in the current misogynist, devastating, anti-progress and anti-intellect, destructive Gangsta Hip Hop flood.

David Mills is, in so far, an important historical figure and actor not to be underestimated.

Undercover Black Man said...

"Fight racist injustice" by blaming the Jews? How was that supposed to work?

maria said...

what's really sad, and david, correct me if i am wrong, is that this post might have the record for most comments on UBM?

also i'm curious, so david has the power to deem people to be white, or of a certain race etc? interesting.

david, she's completely ignorant. tipping is expected. she doesn't even say her waiter was white.

she's old enough to know: 15% is the standard tip and if you have bad service you leave less.

if this keeps her (uncute) ass at taco bell, it will be worth it. i am guessing she may have been as obnoxious in the restaurant to the other tables as she is on this video.

stay home, bitch.

Dollar Bill said...

This is not the record for the most comments,but perhaps there is a little "Springer Syndrome" going on.

Nothing makes people feel better about themselves,than someone demonstrating low class behavior.

That's why Springer and shows like it are so over the top,to make sure the people watching can still say,"At least I'm not THAT bad!".

Undercover Black Man said...

correct me if i am wrong, is that this post might have the record for most comments on UBM?

Hey maria! I hope you're enjoying the holidays.

As for comments, we've actually topped 100 a couple of times. This thread has a long way to go to break records.

she doesn't even say her waiter was white.

Well, she did say he was "turning red." Ain't about the race of the waiter, though. From what I've read, even black waitstaff are leery of serving black customers.

i am guessing she may have been as obnoxious in the restaurant to the other tables as she is on this video.

Thought crossed my mind.

Qadree said...

UBM, if poor tipping by blacks justifies treating black customers poorly, does the pattern of tipping black servers less than white ones give black servers justification if they decide to do something nasty to your food before they bring it to you?

I decided to look for official research and it appears that across all industries black are tipped less than whites regardless of how well the service is. Blacks are tipped less by everyone including other black people according to the research.

Should black workers start secretly exacting revenge (I'm sure some already have), a little food poisoning here, a little scolding hot coffee spilled there, it's all justifiable according to UBM.

If you experience a pattern of mistreatment by the police, as many black men do, you are justified in thinking that the system doesn't work and you should take matters into your own hands. This is a wonderful world you are advocating UBM.

Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"'Fight racist injustice' by blaming the Jews? How was that supposed to work?"

So it is your contention that the content of positive and political Hip Hop was "blaming the Jews"?

David, either you are trying to prove your contention that black folks have inferior intelligence in your own person or you are deliberately misdirecting.

Groups like Public Enemy were never anti-Semitic.

PE had been signed by a Jew (Rick Rubin) on a label founded by a Jew (Rick Rubin/Def Jam), their manager was a Jew (Lyor Cohen), their booking agent was a Jew (Cara Lewis), they were represented by a succession of Jewish-run booking agencies (Norby Walters Agency, Pyramid Entertainment, William Morris Agency), their accountant was Jewish (Burt Padell), etc.

Same with most of the other groups.

Neither was Lisa Williamson (Sister Souljah) an anti-Semite.

But lemme ask you this:

What were you doing working for one of the most corrupt and reactionary personages on the planet, cultist "Rev." Sun Myung Moon and his Unification Church via his Washington Times, the Fox News of the print yellow "journalism"? Your old boss who consistently maintained that the Jewish Holocaust was the just wrath of God for "the Jews killing Jesus"?

And you had the gall pretending to expose anti-Semites among black folks when you were paid by an avowed anti-Semite who has an organized following of hundreds of thousands?

Where was, and where is, your expose of your old boss' anti-Semitism?

Undercover Black Man said...

Groups like Public Enemy were never anti-Semitic.

Oh really, Fisher?

KeWayne said...

Michael,

I concede to your point regarding biological physical characteristics of various races.

However, I feel if you believe merely working at the Washington Times turns you into "Unificationists", I have dozens of friends from when I lived in Lanham, MD who will disagree wholeheartedly with you. I think you elevate UBM's potential influence on people way beyond actuality.

Undercover Black Man said...

Qadree, I don't know what research you're talking about. But you might be interested in a Cornell University marketing professor's paper titled "Ethnic Differences in Tipping."

Prof. Michael Lynn's reports: "Studies of tipping behavior indicate that black customers tend to leave lower tips than do white customers." His research indicates that blacks on average tip 20 percent less.

"This black-white difference in tipping is not due to income or other demographic differences between the two ethnic groups, because that difference remained both sizable and statistically significant after controlling for sex, age, education, income, and household size."

As a consequence, "many table servers dislike waiting on black customers, deliver inferior service to black guests on whom they must wait, and refuse to work in restaurants with a predominately black clientele."

Again I ask: Whose fault is that? Obviously, it's the fault of those who don't understand or accept the social norm of tipping at 15 to 20 percent.

Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"Oh really, Fisher?"

What, Prof. Griff?

Don't make me laugh.

Griff is and was Griff. Griff never was Public Enemy. Besides Griff didn't have then and does not have now a shred of power.

As you full well know, and knew then, Public Enemy is Carlton Ridenour, William Drayton, and Hank Shocklee.

Do you seriously think that Lyor Cohen, an Israeli and scion of a prominent Zionist family would even consider managing PE if there was an anti-Semitic bone in either of the three guys' bodies?

You think Lyor and Rick Rubin didn't know about Griff's theories? Obviously they did (and I know, cause I know Lyor very very well, have known him for 23 years now).

But that ain't the question I posed to you. My questions is, if you were so concerned about exposing anti-Semitism, why did you take money from and fail to expose a real anti-Semite with real power, namely your boss at the time?

As dumb as what Griff said was, I don't ever recall him saying that the millions of Jewish people who were murdered by the Nazis got their just due as your paymaster did.

Well?

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Griff was the "Minister of Information" of Public Enemy... an exalted position, no? Part of his job onstage was to warm up the crowds with cryptic politcal banter. How was he not Public Enemy.

You're the most dishonest person I've yet encountered on the internets, Michael. You are shameless and your game is weak.

Michael Fisher said...

KeWayne...

"However, I feel if you believe merely working at the Washington Times turns you into 'Unificationists'"

KeWayne. If you wanna discuss this rationally, be accurate in your allegations, please. I did not say that Mills "turned into a Unificationist", I said he worked for them. More importantly he worked for them while pursuing a misson of "exposing" anti-Semitism among blacks without exposing the absolutely disgustingly virulent and genocide-approving anti-Semitism of his employer.

There is only one word for such behavior: hypocrisy.

Now, this, coupled with David's unfailingly consistent contention (no rational argument advanced has made him back track on this yet) that "black" folks on the average are genetically disposed towards a lower intelligence level than "whites" and "Asians", points to more than hypocrisy. It becomes, at the very least de facto a political agenda. A racist political agenda to boot.

Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"Griff was the 'Minister of Information' of Public Enemy... an exalted position, no? Part of his job onstage was to warm up the crowds with cryptic politcal banter. How was he not Public Enemy."

Please. That B.S. is equivalent to:

"And David Mills was the 'Collector and Reporter of Information' of Sun Myung Moon's enterprise. How was he not a Unificationist?"

Don't be absurd, Mills. What Griff told you in that snippet was clearly about GRIFF. Did Griff say WE? No. He said "I".

"Part of his job onstage was to warm up the crowds with cryptic politcal banter."

I've been to and have produced and promoted more PE shows than I can count. That "banter" didn't include this stuff.

Besides, if Griff had been foaming about the mouth with this shit on stage, your article wouldn't have been news in the first place.

So, how about it. Where was your expose on your boss' foul ass anti-Semitism, and how come you felt comfortable taking money from him?

"You're the most dishonest person I've yet encountered on the internets, Michael. You are shameless and your game is weak."

Is that so?

I don't recall taking money from and working for anti-Semites like a certain person. All I recall is fighting anti-Semites and racists of all stripes.

Facts are facts, David.

Own up to them.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ You've fought anti-Semites, Michael? Do tell.

You won't even say that Griff was anti-Semitic.

Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"You've fought anti-Semites, Michael? Do tell.

You won't even say that Griff was anti-Semitic.
"

Griff is and was confused and the shit he said was anti-Semitic. "The majority of Jews" - come on man, not even Farrakhan ever said dumb shit like that.

I bet you Griff would be as unable to define what exactly a "Jew" is as you have proven to be unable to define exactly what a "Black" is. And still both feel comfortable in making negative generalizations about either group.

Griff saying what he did about Jews makes him an anti-Semite, and you saying what you did and still say about Blacks makes you what?

Undercover Black Man said...

Griff saying what he did about Jews makes him an anti-Semite...

Thank you. That must mean I did the right thing in reporting it... being that you oppose anti-Semitism.

Michael Fisher said...

David Mills...

"That must mean I did the right thing in reporting it... being that you oppose anti-Semitism."

No, I'm saying that given the pattern of your behavior, the reason you reported it had nothing to do with "exposing anti-Semitism" (else you would have exposed your employer's anti-Semitism at the very least), but did have everything to do with what amounts to your defacto career-long political agenda of opposing black liberation movements and your active support of white supremacist ideas.

Griff's confusion and stupidity turned out to be a convenient means to your end.

Else you would have done an expose on your boss and refused to take money from him. But you didn't (expose) and you did (take money), David.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Oh Lordy...

Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"Oh Lordy..."

LOL

You can jammern "oh Lordy" all day long, David. However, as I said, facts are facts. And you haven't refuted a single one yet.

Step up, Kid.

Michael Fisher said...

I do appreciate you finally putting up that snippet, though.

That is the culmination of the dumbest shit I done heard in a long time.

Now, Dave, really. That was like taking candy from a severely retarded baby. You HAD to know that neither Chuck or even Flavor thought on that level.

KeWayne said...

Michael Fisher said...

...I did not say that Mills "turned into a Unificationist", I said he worked for them
*****************
Michael, in other words, if you work for that paper you must subscribe to the tenets of the Rev. Moon and if you do not subscribe to them, you must publicly denounce those who do follow or be a 'hypocrite'?
There would be a lot of empty desks in corporate America, my friend.

You and UBM don't have to agree to disagree, but there are thousands of other blog sites you could antagonize if you really want to remain miserable. Part of the 'daily bread' we receive from above each day is peace of mind and serenity. It doesn't sound like you are much of either.

Michael Fisher said...

KeWayne...

"Michael, in other words, if you work for that paper you must subscribe to the tenets of the Rev. Moon and if you do not subscribe to them, you must publicly denounce those who do follow or be a 'hypocrite'?"

In David's famous words "Oh Lordy".

Kewayne. My criticism of David did not revolve around working for Sun Myung Moon per se, but about his working for that anti-Semite while engaged in a mission of exposing anti-Semitism among folks other than his virulently anti-Semitic employer.

There's the difference.

Undercover Black Man said...

Keep in mind, Michael, that Griff didn't just make these things up in his own head. You know this, right?

Where did Griff's certitude come from? He was taught these things.

At the time he made those comments, he was working towards his "X" in the Nation of Islam.

dangerblond said...

That poor girl will never live down that stupid video.

Did anyone click through to the YouTube page and read the comments? Unbelievably racist, n-word all over the place. It is amazing to me how any bad action by any black person leads to generalized contempt of how "all black people" behave. Bad behavior by individual white people, in contrast, is not thought to be representative of all whites.

If I was black, this video would be very disheartening to me because there is so much stereotyping that goes on. As a white woman, I would never be blamed or held responsible for what some other idiot white woman did.

I live in New Orleans and I have friends in our service industry. I have never heard that black people don't tip, but I have heard many times that Europeans don't.

The worst thing about this video is that she uses the excuse that they didn't have enough money to tip after ordering the most expensive thing you can eat and two drinks apiece. No sympathy from me for that one. I would feel sorry for her if she didn't know better.

Qadree said...

Qadree, I don't know what research you're talking about.

Most of the studies are not available online, but here is a link to an article that lists several of them and has some good quotes.

http://tri-statedefenderonline.com/articlelive/articles/2630/1/Size-Matters-Do-African-American-workers-get-smaller-tips/Page1.html

For white servers, tips increased from 16.8 percent of the bill size when service was rated less than perfect to 23.4 percent of the bill size when service was given a perfect rating. However, for African-American servers, tips were 16.6 percent of the bill size for both perfect and less than perfect service ratings. Thus, contrary to our hypothesis, the server race effect was stronger at higher levels of perceived service quality than at moderate levels of perceived service quality.


If you have access to Proquest do a search for consumer tipping, I downloaded the cab driver tipping study from there.

You also, in your eagerness support biased treatment of black people, totally ignore the big picture.

If it's acceptable to mistreat someone because you believe you were mistreated what kind of society are you creating. You actually condone this as long as the mistreatment is directed at blacks, but not when a black person returns the favor. It's pretty clear where you stand, white is right no matter what.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Nobody's talking about "mistreatment," Qadree. But under what concept of justice do you argue that people who tip poorly are entitled to the same quality of service as people who tip well?

What the woman in the video doesn't begin to understand is the harm she did to black people.

Undercover Black Man said...

Welcome, dangerblond. Thanks for the comment.

Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"Keep in mind, Michael, that..."

If you had lived anywhere in the black communities in the Northeast at any time you would've heard similar stuff like that all the time. The myths that circulate in the black community about Jews have much do do with those numbers of rapacious white people who called themselves Jews that did indeed take advantage of poor and powerless black folks in places like New York as landlords, shopkeepers, and unfair employers of poor black women as their "Putzfrau" in what was known in the 1930s and 1940s as the Bronx slave market, for example.

In key urban areas, such as New York City, it was often white people who called themselves Jews who represented the face of white supremacy in the form of teachers, social service officials, and the like. Positions of power. Anti-black racism among prominent segments of the white population that describes itself as Jewish is legendary with prominent Jewish leaders such as Norman Podhoretz, chief editor of the Jewish Committee's magazine Commentary spouting the most vicious white racist vitriol. Add to the mix the activity of prominent NAACP members such as Judge Julian Mack who convicted Marcus Garvey, the black nationalist precursor of the NOI, the steadfast depiction of black people as coons, fools, and criminals in the film industry during the era of eastern European Jewish film tycoons such as the Warners etc. and no wonder black folks tended to get both confused about and, above all, fearful of white people who called themselves Jews. The prominent role other white folks who called themselves Jews had in the civil rights movement could not dispel that.

So, Griff is a perfect example of a confused victim of racism, and not, as the the German Nazis were, a vicious advocate of "racial" genocide against people whom the Nazis classified as non-white. Namely the people who classified themselves Jewish and (unsuccessfully under Nazi rule, but successfully here in the USA) as white.

In any case, the question still remains:

If you were so concerned about exposing anti-Semitism at the time, why did you not expose that of your employer and take money from him?

Undercover Black Man said...

... no wonder black folks tended to get both confused about and, above all, fearful of white people who called themselves Jews.

Spoken like a true fighter against anti-Semitism!

Michael Fisher said...

dangerblond...

"I live in New Orleans and I have friends in our service industry. I have never heard that black people don't tip, but I have heard many times that Europeans don't."

Actually, that's accurate.

In Europe, particularly Central Europe (Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc). Waiter get a living wage paid by their employers. Tipping, if at all, usually involves only leaving the coin change that is returned when a banknote is presented as payment.

Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"Spoken like a true fighter against anti-Semitism!"

Now why don't you follow up your sarcastic remark with concrete arguments?

And don't forget to answer the question of why you, did work for and take money from proven anti-Semites?

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Sun Myung Moon was just "confused."

Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"Sun Myung Moon was just 'confused.'"

I see. See, I woulda never have taken money from or worked for an anti-Semite, be he confused or not. Especially if I trying to expose anti-Semitism. So your only rationale for your taking money from that guy and his organization is that he was just confused?

Anonymous said...

If I want to leave a tip I will. (if you worked for it) If I don't so be it. If i'm going to a resturant it's for a little r&r, not to be stressed because of a damm tip! I work hard everyday, without tips. If you want better options find another line of work and stop begging!

Undercover Black Man said...

^ This is the problem precisely.

DC in Bmore said...

I'm not a regular commenter, just a regular reader. I fear that in the nasty personal attacks that are building here, we're losing sight of a couple of key points in which race isn't a factor:

1. This skeezer doesn't understand the restaurant business, the service industry, or the concept of showing kindness and appreciation for people who bring personally-prepared food directly to your fucking table in an upscale setting that's better than the front seat of your goddamn car at the drive-thru.

2. She doesn't give a shit about any of the above, only about her own spoiled, me-first, entitled, thinks-she-and-her-own-ass-are-too-cute-for-words self.

The waiter was not out of line. He should have punched her in the face, then grabbed her by the ankles and shaken her until whatever money she had left fell out, or until she lost consciousness, or both. Either way, she'd end up a little more educated about what's fair to the wait staff after a $160 meal, rather than what's fair to her.

But this is why I made sure I never had to wait tables for a living. The first time someone like her and her skank friends showed up, I'd have spent a night in jail, and I'd be forced to lie about it on all future job applications.

On the other hand, I would have tried very hard not to buy into the stereotype about blacks tipping badly, regardless of proof like hers.

Keep up the good work, UBM.

Gotta admit, though, I want to see what happens when she tries to call Johnnie Cochran.

Undercover Black Man said...

^ Thanks for de-lurking, DC. I appreciate your comments.

mel said...

Got your own Wikipedia entry..?:
"Mills spoke with activist and rapper Sister Souljah in 1992 for the Washington Post"
- That's you??

KeWayne said...

Anonymous said...
...(I)f you want better options find another line of work and stop begging!
**************
Well stated! You knucklehead...

Undercover Black Man said...

- That's you??

With bells on.

mel said...

UBM said "With bells on"

Hmmm - Ouch.
No comment. It's Christmas.

Ree said...

I really hate the whole black women tip poorly sterotype. I tend to overtip a bit as a black woman. Even for subpar service, because anyone can be having a bad day. Not only waiters (because I used to do a restaurant payroll, I KNOW they are underpaid: $2.13 per hour is restaurant minimum wage) but everyone considered a "sevice" employee. I am sorry people have had a bad experience with a black female patron or two, but we don't all under tip. No one I know does. Maybe I hang with a better class of black folk.

I like what dangerblond says. She dosen't get blamed for what some other idiot white woman did. Must be nice.

Geneva Girl said...

Goodness gracious me! Mrs. Claus got a bit busy over here and look what I missed!

I agree with Joy316, if you don't have the money to leave a decent tip, keep your sorry behind home, I don't what color or gender you are! And keep your pants on and your fingers to yourself.

Merry Christmas everyone!

KeWayne said...

UBM,

Thus far, there are 92 comments on this. You mentioned you have a few posts with over 100. Let's have a recap of the top five of 2008...

Happy Holidays to everybody

bklyn6 said...

As a white woman, I would never be blamed or held responsible for what some other idiot white woman did.

Are you Peggy McIntosh? ;-)

Undercover Black Man said...

Let's have a recap of the top five of 2008...

Brilliant idea, KeWayne... simply brilliant! I'm a sucker for conceptual hooks.

I'll do that. Should be fun...

Qadree said...

But under what concept of justice do you argue that people who tip poorly are entitled to the same quality of service as people who tip well?

This is the last thing I'm going to say about this.

UBM, do you not see the contradiction in that statement you made?

In what world does someone who has made their mind up to give you bad service because of your race deserve a good tip? You give the tip after you get the service, not the other way around.

I know you picked a video clip of a particular woman in order to support your own preexisting bias, but why do you expect black people to give generous tips when it's your assertion that they are receiving bad service from the moment they enter the restaurant.

This may come as a surprise to you, but when people are biased they will find reasons to justify that bias. I've met people who admit to never really having bad experiences with black people, but they still make negative assumptions and it's reflected in their actions. How do you know that these waiters weren't giving black people bad service to start with because of beliefs they already held and thus relegating themselves to poor tips based on there own actions?

You completely ignore any detrimental actions aimed at black people yet are quick to agree with assumptions that favor the guilt of black people.

There are some basic questions you have dodged this entire time.

The disparity in tips for black employees reflects a well know fact. Black people doing the same job with the same amount of skill are usually paid less than their white counterparts.

But under what concept of justice do you argue that people who tip poorly are entitled to the same quality of service as people who tip well?

Your words not mine.

According to your logic black people should lower their level of performance according to their lower pay and/or tips, yes?

If black people as a class state they experience biased treatment from white people, does your logic not justify black people treating all white people as racists?

This is your logic, but you ignore the logical outcome because it doesn't support your bias. Trying to get unbiased commentary from a biased person to is like trying to get the a priest to change their religion. I know you are entrenched, but you could at least acknowledge that your way of thinking is illogical unless you use racial bias to justify it.

Undercover Black Man said...

How do you know that these waiters weren't giving black people bad service to start with because of beliefs they already held and thus relegating themselves to poor tips based on there own actions?

Because it would not be in a waiter's own interest to give poorer service to someone he expected might tip generously.

Michael Fisher said...

Mills...

"Because it would not be in a waiter's own interest to give poorer service to someone he expected might tip generously."

Racism doesn't work that way. Else white innkeepers and restaurant owners in the South (as well in the North) would not have refused service to well-heeled paying black customers.

This statement of yours betrays the entire logical fallacy of your thinking. It is that faulty logic that underlies your whole notion of "black mental inferiority".

You assume that we live in a social system in which racism on the whole is passe.

And then you look around the world and see that "black" people on the average live way below the standard of living of "white" people.

So you attribute this to either of three sole logical possible causes:

(a) Black people as a race are mentally inferior to white people.

(b) Black people as a race are kept in in the position they are in by white people.

(c) Black people as a race are kept in in the position they are in by white people AND Black people as a race are mentally inferior to white people.

Since you par tout refuse to acknowledge (b) you have to argue that (1) the concept of a biological race exists, and (2) that only (a) is a possible explanation.

It is that thinking that clearly informs your attitude about this woman and that of "black people tipping".

Now the fact is, that, as has been repeatedly been demonstrated, biological "race" does not exist, that is, the concept is meaningless.

The result of that is that (a) and (c) fall by the wayside as possibilities.

Which leaves (b).

Which you refuse to acknowledge and thus you, as Qardee says, you dodge simple, basic questions that the exercise of logical thinking generate.

Which means you either cannot or will not think logically. If it is the former then you would be plain unintelligent, which you obviously are not. If my contention that you are quite intelligent is correct, then your refusal to follow simple logic must have base motives, namely white racist motivations.

Which explains Qadree's sentence that "I know you [Mills] are entrenched, but you could at least acknowledge that your way of thinking is illogical unless you use racial bias to justify it."

Nipsey Muhammad said...

Y'all needs to do what I do... tip those white muthafuckas with Confederate money!

If they bitch, tell 'em: "It was good enough for your grandpappy!"

KeWayne said...

Michael Fisher said...
Mills...your type of white racist thinking is harmful.

Qadree said...(Mills)...you could at least acknowledge that your way of thinking is illogical unless you use racial bias to justify it.
********************
Qadree, M. Fisher...

Has it occurred to either of you that David may be WRONG about some of this beliefs, not racially biased in any way, shape or form?

I personally believe black people (including yours truly), as a group (not race, Fish) are very noisy. That is merely my opinion. I have no basis in fact for that feeling. I do not think white people are superior for any reason and I am not racially biased for my thoughts on this subject. However, I cannot prove I am right and YOU cannot prove I am wrong.

David puts his name & picture on every post. His opinions and thoughts are not for your judgement. You can also have opinions and thoughts and they may be adverse to Mr. Mills' writings. But, like his, yours are not wrong - merely yours. Sometimes, it appears your attacks are personal and that is a shame. If that is the case, take your venom elsewhere. This isn't a politically racially charged site with occasional entertainment. It is an entertainment site offering occasional opportunities to exchange social, political & yes, racial philosophies...

Go scream at the skinheads, not another black man.

Anonymous said...

My college years I worked at a chicken processing plant at night and carried an average of 17hrs per semister. I did this because I did not want to rely on the "tip system" as my peers did. They thought what I did was to "dirty", but I always had money in my pockets. I not only graduated with a degree, but with pride, sound work ethics, humility and character. I shaped MY path in life and I am were I want to be. It bothers me when I hear stories like this, because it's like people want something for nothing. I work hard everyday with no tips, sometimes no pat on the back saying good job. When I sit in that nice SUV I have and my nice house it all goes away and leaves a big smile on my face. So, if that's the stop you chose to get of in the railway of life deal with and stop making it difficult for those who put in the work to make it.

Michael Fisher said...

KeWayne...

"Has it occurred to either of you that David may be WRONG about some of this beliefs, not racially biased in any way, shape or form?"

Well, if you think that advocating the myth of "black" genetic mental inferiority ain't a symptom of being "racially biased", then that's on you. Such a position is It's not even logical. And I certainly can not comprehend a supposed "black" man to argue or even tolerate (as you do) such dreck.

Anonymous said...

first off...i dont even believe that this uncouth fattie even tipped the $8 that she says she did...judging by her language, mannerisms, and intelligence (which I am sure the waiter noticed) i think he would have been happy with an 8% tip. she even says herself that the waiter used the term "stiff"...being a waiter myself in a nice restaurant, we NEVER use the word "stiff" unless we recieve absolutley NOTHING...im talkin change less than a dollar...2nd...just to let everyone know...you shouldnt tip 14% or 15% if your server did a GREAT job. it should be more like 20-25%. try working a serving job and see how you feel when you recieve $50 pay checks because of all the taxes taken out of the 15% of your IMPLIED tips. good tips are necessary for a server to survive. i know that i wouldnt be able to pay for my school and books if i had cheap fat chicks(no matter what race) at my tables everynight who strayed from their usual taco bell excursions to get some "filet mignon and sea foo salad" all while having ABSOLUTLEY no restaurant ediquette. and 3rd...if you are going to make a 5 1/2 minute blog on showing people how dumb and ignant you are...keep your pants on at end and save yourself a LITTLE dignity.