tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post1223566931855532864..comments2023-10-29T09:32:24.412-07:00Comments on Undercover Black Man: Stakes Be High, pt. 4Undercover Black Manhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08704721024820668555noreply@blogger.comBlogger144125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-34451118121002225792008-01-05T02:20:00.000-08:002008-01-05T02:20:00.000-08:00Mills..."Damn, Fisher. I did not know this."Well, ...Mills...<BR/><BR/><I>"Damn, Fisher. I did not know this."</I><BR/><BR/>Well, you think Haiti's poverty was an accident?<BR/><BR/>Imagine Israel paying reparations to Germany for 143 years because Germany's privilege of killing and enslaving Jews was violently removed.Michael Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14542253904917878025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-5011637783951819892008-01-04T10:46:00.000-08:002008-01-04T10:46:00.000-08:00D: You and I might think change of law implies pr...D: You and I might think change of law implies proof of illegitimacy, but this is not the case. If the death penalty, by example, is banned or unbanned through moral influence, prior instances of it do not become unlawful or even immoral. Rather, the change of the law is simply society changing its mind, not to fix the past, but to better the future. Changing laws is not the same as repairing 'damage' from laws broken, I suppose. This reminds us that laws are minimum functions (generally) and limited tools.James C. Collierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06268279457459050826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-13467268831175368892008-01-04T09:18:00.000-08:002008-01-04T09:18:00.000-08:00^ Except, Jim, that the very abolition of slavery ...^ Except, Jim, that the very abolition of slavery would seem to acknowledge that the status of Africans as "property" was illegitimate. Why then reward those "property"-owners beyond what they were rewarded for all that free labor?<BR/><BR/>Sounds to me like a pay-off for political peace... or something. I'd like to explore the <EM>realpolitik</EM> of reparations to slave-owners.Undercover Black Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08704721024820668555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-66472034127431244272008-01-04T09:09:00.000-08:002008-01-04T09:09:00.000-08:00Payment to slaveholders for the loss of their 'pro...Payment to slaveholders for the loss of their 'property' seems jacked-up under today's moral standards, but was consistent with laws on the books at the time. This is why revisionism only works in the movies.James C. Collierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06268279457459050826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-72811689797761115572008-01-04T08:48:00.000-08:002008-01-04T08:48:00.000-08:00^ Damn, Fisher. I did not know this.^ Damn, Fisher. I did not know this.Undercover Black Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08704721024820668555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-89711553502712610732008-01-02T18:55:00.000-08:002008-01-02T18:55:00.000-08:00Mills...Just have to add one postscript:When the B...Mills...<BR/><BR/><I>Just have to add one postscript:<BR/><BR/>When the British abolished slavery, the British government did pay reparations... to the owners, for the loss of their property. Now ain't that a bitch?</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, and Haiti had to pay <I>reparations</I> to France for kicking their slave-masters out in 1804, reparations which were not paid of until 143 years later, in <I>1947</I>.Michael Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14542253904917878025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-17878314987482019492008-01-02T18:07:00.000-08:002008-01-02T18:07:00.000-08:00Just have to add one postscript:When the British a...Just have to add one postscript:<BR/><BR/>When the British abolished slavery, the British government did pay reparations... to the <EM>owners</EM>, for the loss of their property. Now ain't that a bitch?Undercover Black Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08704721024820668555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-58423192819120063162008-01-02T14:13:00.000-08:002008-01-02T14:13:00.000-08:00e money,good catch on the folks during the immedia...e money,<BR/><BR/>good catch on the folks during the immediate aftermath of slavery.<BR/><BR/>I guess that's why there was so much lynching.<BR/><BR/>(larry merchant commentary after the bout.)DeAngelo Starneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18159838580641718119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-10473314641178662442008-01-02T13:54:00.000-08:002008-01-02T13:54:00.000-08:00fisher and starnes,I wouldn't broach the inherent ...fisher and starnes,<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't broach the inherent immorality of your reparations pursuit, either. Put this thing to sleep and devise better schemes to uplift your fellow black man. At least devise a scheme that doesn't purposely destroy before any promise of restoration.Thordaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15887901925655428541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-51530368713749918232008-01-02T13:09:00.000-08:002008-01-02T13:09:00.000-08:00Interesting thread. I've been on vacation so just ...Interesting thread. I've been on vacation so just seeing all this.<BR/><BR/>Let me, for the record, toss out a couple of bombs for and against reparations:<BR/><BR/>1. AGAINST<BR/><BR/>All those white folk with "hidden" black blood and/or quadroons and octoroons passing for white who have benefited from the system of whiteness would all of sudden pop up and admit their DNA and make a mockery of the relief sought to those who suffered, and there would be no way to stop that tide. Some food for thought.<BR/><BR/>An argument against the practical, but much more of a problem that where the money comes from, IMHO.<BR/><BR/>2. FOR<BR/><BR/>The real important period of history to study in terms of harm to modern day black folk is not slavery, but the 60-70 years after slavery - but with serious focus on the first 14 of those years during Reconstruction.<BR/><BR/>All those things, Dave, that you ask of Black folks -- up you mighty race, hard work, businesses, capital formation -- all that was done in a major way. As many or more Black congressmen then than now. More black banks then than now - on and on.<BR/><BR/>Since then, every major attempt of Blacks to succeed as a group has been thwarted. Entire black towns in the West burned to the ground. Railroads re-routed so as not to bring supplies or dollars to mostly black towns. Black farms being taken - today. Black soldiers not allowed to fight in combat and win the mental victory of honor fighting for their country. Redlining as a federal law. Blacks unable to participate in Homesteading or qualify for post WW2 loans. $1 a wekk insurance scams. The list goes on and on.<BR/><BR/>40 Acres and a Mule is more than a concept. Land ownership (or the lack of it and policies directed toward black folk to limit us from it specifically) is at the very heart of the discrepancies between Black and white wealth. Most white families have wealth and access to capital because of inheritance, most of that coming from housing bought with federal assistance after WW2 in programs for which black were ineligible or unfavored. We got screwed in a much more lasting and impactful way far after the free labor business.<BR/><BR/>Forget about slavery, it's the hard working black folk of the first half of the 20th century and last 20 years of the 19th who couldn't catch a break no matter how much they tried or believed in uplift and education. They deserve reparations for institutional racism.<BR/><BR/>Should I get reparations? No. Should my Mama and all her generation and those before who are still living? Abso-fucking-lutely. Even if it's just free health care and tax relief or no interest home loans.<BR/><BR/>Only Anonymous because I can't remember my freakin' password.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-89883947178751295902008-01-02T11:14:00.000-08:002008-01-02T11:14:00.000-08:00wow,a few punches thrown after the bell.But good b...wow,<BR/><BR/>a few punches thrown after the bell.<BR/><BR/>But good blows they were, fisher.<BR/><BR/>I like your style, brotha.DeAngelo Starneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18159838580641718119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-85514203929153680272008-01-02T10:58:00.000-08:002008-01-02T10:58:00.000-08:00Mills..."He's got his gig because his parents embr...Mills...<BR/><BR/><I>"He's got his gig because his parents embraced and passed on to him the values of education, law-abidingness and work."</I><BR/><BR/>First, what's "mau-mauing" according to your definition?<BR/><BR/>Secondly, your statement above says that the parents of those black folks who do not have a gig "like Reginald's" did not or did not sufficiently pass on to their children the values of education, law-abidingness, and work.<BR/><BR/>Which would suggest that your parents did not do quite as good a job as Reginald's (or mine, for that matter).<BR/><BR/>The fact is, however, that neither I, nor my co-student, Warrington Hudlin, got into Yale because of the educational, work, and law-abidingness both of our parent's undoubtedly imbued us with, but because the black community made <I>just demands</I>. Else Yale would've been flooded with black students for centuries because the vast majority of black people have <I>always</I> striven to inculcate their children with the understanding that they need to be educated, work ten times as hard as a white person, and abide by the law, (even when the law was unjust - if only to survive).<BR/><BR/><I>But the demand itself concedes power to the other side.</I><BR/><BR/>Power is power. Either one has it or one doesn't. The fantasy that white folks collectively do not possess power in this country or on this planet is the <I>first</I> step to preventing non-white people in general and people of African descent in particular from acquiring autonomous power and the establishment of a system of justice.Michael Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14542253904917878025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-50726735747047361542008-01-02T10:57:00.000-08:002008-01-02T10:57:00.000-08:00Davey Dave,you a baad dude.Thanks for the opportun...Davey Dave,<BR/><BR/>you a baad dude.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the opportunity and forum.<BR/><BR/>The best way to end a round is to agree to disagree.<BR/><BR/>I got my next question lubricated and primed.<BR/><BR/>Let me know when to drop it.<BR/><BR/>Jerry Quarry, my hands hurt from beating that ass. <BR/><BR/>Ding! Round over. Good job, Dave.DeAngelo Starneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18159838580641718119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-33875665371380725492008-01-02T10:36:00.000-08:002008-01-02T10:36:00.000-08:00nice finish David. good run.nice finish David. good run.James C. Collierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06268279457459050826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-20723607586684621332008-01-02T10:30:00.001-08:002008-01-02T10:30:00.001-08:00Thordadday: I contend that slavery was not invent...Thordadday: I contend that slavery was not invented anywhere, but rather was/is a milestone that each society passes through (hopefully), as part of its evolution. It is natural, like eating, sleeping, and farting. But as with passing gas, or homicide, we also evolved rules for it. You accuse others of trying to guilt 'whitey', and I agree, but you are no different in assigning blame/guilt to Africans for slavery and using this as support of rejecting their arguments. Pot calling the kettle black, so to speak.James C. Collierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06268279457459050826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-62717862135563154072008-01-02T10:30:00.000-08:002008-01-02T10:30:00.000-08:00"Power Concedes Nothing Without a Demand."But the ...<EM>"Power Concedes Nothing Without a Demand."</EM><BR/><BR/>But the demand itself concedes power to the other side. Hence, the psychological harm of black folks walking around believing that they're owed money. (Or, worse, a "blood debt.")<BR/><BR/>I think I have illustrated why reparations for slavery is an unjust demand. (Your great-great-great-grandparents suffer; you wanna gets paids.)<BR/><BR/>So this is what's wrong with Conyers's proposal of "just a study," DeAngelo. To waste time studying what we already surmise is an unjust demand, it just adds to the pyschological and cultural distraction of black folks believing that <EM>if only Whitey would do us right</EM>, then things would be better.<BR/><BR/>Whereas the power to make things better resides only within black people ourselves. Reg doesn't have his gig because somebody Mau-Maued the Man. He's got his gig because his parents embraced and passed on to him the values of education, law-abidingness and work.<BR/><BR/>We're coming to the end of this discussion. Nothing to be said on either side that hasn't been said already.Undercover Black Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08704721024820668555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-26667859975011688912008-01-02T09:24:00.000-08:002008-01-02T09:24:00.000-08:00As for what makes me white...? It has to be the bl...<I>As for what makes me white...? It has to be the black man's hustle you're trying to pull off.</I><BR/><BR/>What made you "white" before you ran into Deangelo's and my "hustle"?Michael Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14542253904917878025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-5764893179841895292008-01-02T01:42:00.000-08:002008-01-02T01:42:00.000-08:00In short, you are doing exactly what you accuse th...In short, you are doing exactly what you accuse the slave masters of doing. Yet, you don't seem to care whether such an action will have the same repercussions. After all, we will only be following the principles you espoused. <BR/><BR/>Young, ignorant blacks that follow your racial screed may be doing much more damage than they ever could imagine all because the racial demagogues did little to teach real history.<BR/><BR/>If you think taking a man's money through racial hucksterism and to the detriment of his children and family will have nothing but positive effects then you're a second-rate hustler. Only a fool would buy that snake oil. Sounds like you think you have a lot of fools to sell to...?Thordaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15887901925655428541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-83287050414659354802008-01-02T01:13:00.000-08:002008-01-02T01:13:00.000-08:00fisher and starnes,The one argument neither of you...fisher and starnes,<BR/><BR/>The one argument neither of you will broach, because it requires you to accept the notion that your pursuit for reparations is inherently immoral, is the fact that you must harm before you prosper.<BR/><BR/>There are, of course, consequences to such a frame of mind. In order to give it morality, the thing harmed must be guilty and the chance to prosper must seem more than speculative.<BR/><BR/>Not only does this toxic ideology condemn an entire race, it <B>does so eternally.</B> In addition, it provides very little empirical evidence that any significant money transfer will have the desired effect, namely, bring the black community on par with the white community. <BR/><BR/>So obviously, only the most self-hating and economically ignorant white person would be susceptible to this message. Or, just rich white liberals. LOL!Thordaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15887901925655428541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-46111145247690947442008-01-02T00:51:00.000-08:002008-01-02T00:51:00.000-08:00fisher,You're more than welcome to articulate in w...fisher,<BR/><BR/>You're more than welcome to articulate in what way my children's future is "ensured by injustice" due to my lack of handing you money? <BR/><BR/>As for what makes me white...? It has to be the black man's hustle you're trying to pull off.<BR/><BR/>How about you give me money based on the principle that you asked it of me, first? I mean, if a dude just gives you money based on some slick-tongued demagoguery then you have to be hard-pressed to turn away his request for the same?Thordaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15887901925655428541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-35215441868225511222008-01-02T00:32:00.000-08:002008-01-02T00:32:00.000-08:00thordaddy..."That I sacrifice my children's future...thordaddy...<BR/><BR/>"That I sacrifice my children's future so you can get yours?"<BR/><BR/>As one can see, the criterion here is not justice but the future of his children, be that future ensured by injustice or not.<BR/><BR/>What makes you "white", Thordaddy?Michael Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14542253904917878025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-18368412404230566782008-01-02T00:29:00.000-08:002008-01-02T00:29:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Michael Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14542253904917878025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-57027609278154711672008-01-02T00:23:00.000-08:002008-01-02T00:23:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Michael Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14542253904917878025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-39730424219657808542008-01-01T22:57:00.000-08:002008-01-01T22:57:00.000-08:00thoraddy,am i the threat?or your inadequateness?thoraddy,<BR/><BR/>am i the threat?<BR/><BR/>or your inadequateness?DeAngelo Starneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18159838580641718119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4486244714643027014.post-55925475001424664252008-01-01T22:42:00.000-08:002008-01-01T22:42:00.000-08:00Georgia like a muthafucka!Folks talked that Hawaii...Georgia like a muthafucka!<BR/><BR/>Folks talked that Hawaii shit.<BR/><BR/>Just the same as thordaddy.<BR/><BR/>It's looking like a shutout.<BR/><BR/>This one's got the juice of a dead grape until you answer why a study's a bad idea, Dave.<BR/><BR/>Give this topic life, or let's move on.<BR/><BR/>And thordaddy all you can do is come out the corner for more shots.DeAngelo Starneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18159838580641718119noreply@blogger.com